Which Heavyweight Is Possibly Overrated Because Of Nostalgia?

A state commission’s medical standards are the same for a 4-round preliminary fighter as for a world champion. It’s health and safety. They do not have a sliding scale based on your opponent.

“Sure he lost half his blood and needed eight transfusions a couple months ago, but no biggie, he’s not fighting prime Joe Louis” isn’t how it works.

They know damned well Mike Tyson shouldn’t be in a ring, but everybody (including Mike) is making coin so they don’t care. The idea that today’s medical standards wouldn’t allow Ali of Holmes to fight but actually did allow Tyson of Paul to fight makes no sense. They did.

 

Yes, Ali’s ability to adapt shouldn’t be confused with Muhammad having been availed of fortuitous conditions.

Ali’s ability to adapt should in fact be applauded.

The canvas was also soft and therefore “slow” in Zaire - possibly in part due to the preceding heavy downpour. At any rate, just another factor that certainly was not in Ali’s favour.

I don’t know that leaning on the ropes is illegal per se and, over the years, the time that Ali did spend on the ropes has been somewhat exaggerated, just imo.

Both on and off the ropes Ali was landing some pretty savage shots on George.

Foreman might’ve drained his own tank somewhat in his efforts to KO Ali, but Muhammad was doing his own share of syphoning that tank with the punishment he was meting out.

 

If you say so. To me it was self explanatory.

I agree with you that Shavers did not know how hurt Ali was, but I think he was afraid to go all out.

Agreed, but if Shavers actually believed what he said, it might explain his actions.

Ali was not a big puncher, but his punches could still do damage nonetheless, especially if they came in combos. Perhaps Shavers was afraid he was gonna get caught with too many.

Good question. That is hard to say exactly. For me, he'd probably need at least 4 or 5.

I agree.

 

Your reaction says otherwise.

For the millionth time, they were good/decent rounds in your view, not in mine.

There's no agenda.

It is objective, it's simply my assessment of the fight, whether you like it or not.

Actually I did.

I've conjured up nothing, it's just how I scored it.

Mate, give it up already, you sound like a broken record. For the billionth time, you saw them as decent, I don't have to have the same view.

Actually it is.

It doesn't have to be "hotly debated", as you say. I simply think neither did enough to edge it. Given those circumstances, I can more than score a round even.

And your point is ?!?
Again, it's me whos's scoring, it's my assessment. It's not like I'm obligated it to score certain rounds for Ali.

Shavers won the first 3 quarters of that round, Ali won the last 30 seconds. Shavers was the aggressor for most of the round and pressing Ali. I also disagree with your assessment that he almost KO'd Shavers, IMO there was little chance of that happening. They were both exhausted and their punches had little power behind them at that point.
Given those circumstances, Ali certainly did not win the round in my book.

I more than am, you just don't like my scoring.

 

Valdes was no 2 when Liston beat him.
Big Oaf?
Valdes beat
London
Cockell
Richardson
Neuhaus
Summerlin
Sys
Jackson
Bethea
Parker
Charles
McMurtry
Erskine
DeJohn
His record stacks up well against any 50's heavyweight.
Saying Valdes would lose to," him and him," is just your opinion.
Who predicted Valdes would beat Charles?
Rex Layne?
Good win over Walcott
Good win over Satterfield
A win over so so Brion
A win over washed up Thompson

 

He was out of The Ring Top 10 at the time.

 

Thanks for your reply.

If it can be said that Earnie appeared to unduly delay his follow up I could get on board with the explanation that he was being mindful not to go too hard, too early, lest he punch himself out in futility.

That possible explanation returns me to how well paced Shavers was over the 15 round distance - much different to previous versions of Earnie who, after swinging for the fences, often gassed well before time.

On the other side of the coin, when Ali retreated to the ropes shortly after being wobbled, a measured and precise Shavers coolly and calmly punched through Ali’s attempt to play the rope a dope.

I don’t recall any opponent who gave Ali cause to get off the ropes as quickly as he did against Shavers.

Aside from contentions as to who won, it was a great performance from Earnie any which way.

One last thing, and I don’t take quotes as evidence in their own right, I’m pretty sure that Shavers originally felt that he won the fight but he later said that he agreed that Ali won.

In a way, Shavers’ apparent switch in his opinion illustrates the value (or lack thereof) of such quotes.

As it so happened, there were also a few of Shavers’ opponents who, even though they had already faced Earnie, originally nominated other opponents as the hardest puncher they had ever faced only to later alter their opinion to choose Earnie instead.

 

I never said he was a big oaf. I in fact admitted he was a solid contender.

What I did say is that I imagine that had he lost to Marciano, there would be those who reduce him to being "not that good anyway" and "a big oaf who lost to light heavyweights". And that his reputation gets a big boost from those people who elevate him because he was a Liston opponent and Liston lost to Ali.

In fact, I remember a discussion I had on a forum and it was about Marciano and of course, he talked about how Marciano only beat tiny, light heavyweights but Liston beat skilled giants like Nino Valdes. I pointed out that one of those tiny, light heavyweights in fact did beat Valdez and did it while he was younger and Liston beat an older version. Then he had nothing to say

 

Then came the domination of the big 3.

 

Your scorecard says you can't score a fight unbiased or objectively when you dislike a fighter.

And for the millionth time they must of been decent rounds if you thought 7 rounds could be even.

That's 7 rounds that could be scored either way.

That's what an even round means "debatable" when you can't split a round between two fighters.

It's just you dishonestly try and claim you're being objective when your not.

That's why when Ali had his best period in the fight between rounds 10-15. You only scored 1 round for Ali and all the other rounds as even, so you could have the widest possible scorecard for Shavers a clear sign of agenda on your part.

Yes there is and your scoring between rounds 10-15 clearly shows that.

Yes your assessment is to score every decent or good Ali round as even to conjure up a wide scorecard for Shavers congrats.

An amazing assessment of being biased and not objective.

Actually you didn't.

Yeah you just to happen to score every objectively good or decent round for Ali as even.

And came up with a ridiculous scorecard of Ali winning 3 rounds.

You just basically agreed with me ? do you not realize that.

You thought neither did enough to edge those even rounds meaning they are hotly debated rounds in your mind ? hello ? that's what i've been saying ?

The issue is that no way any sane or objective scorer would only see Ali winning only 3 rounds.

So clearly it's an issue with your scorecard primarily your scoring between rounds 10-15. Which is when Ali really woke up and start doing his best work yet you see only 1 round for Ali.

So yes clearly there is an agenda here that's why you scored all of Ali's best rounds down the stretch as even no ifs or buts about it.

Give up your hating and score a fight objectively.

It's not the fact you don't have the same view as me the issue is you don't have the same view as anyone do you not realize that ?

Do the judges, ringside scorers, or any fans scorecards primarily on this forum let's just say. Have a scorecard remotely close to yours with Ali only winning 3 rounds ?

And there's your answer that it's a "you" issue it's as simple as that.

Having a scorecard of Shavers edging the fight is totally reasonable.

But having a scorecard of where you clearly had an agenda scoring Ali's best rounds as even so you could have a wide scorecard for Shavers. Because you dislike Ali which you've already admitted and clearly you can't score this fight objectively.

And that's where the issue lies.

And Holmes won a similar type round on all 3 judges scorecards in 15th round against Norton for his late rally no different.

Also i never said Ali clearly won the round but it's certainly a debatable round, that Ali definitely could've won and many people have scored it for him and see it as a vital round in a close fight for his late rally.

And why is there little chance of Ali stopping Shavers ? Shavers was totally gassed and had nothing left. Another 30 seconds i could easily see Shavers visiting the canvas.

Ali did more damage in the round and badly hurt his opponent alot of scorers would see that as a round for Ali.

 

I'm not sure Angelo tried too hard,I think he should have walked away a lot earlier, as Pacheco did.

 

Agreed Ali also didnt really out fight Frazier in any of their 3 fights either. He lost the first, Was allowed to hold Frazier all night long in the 2nd and actually came out of the 'Thrilla in Manila" Worse off than Frazier did and was on the verge of quitting himself when Fraziers corner pulled him out. Clearly lost 2 of the fights against Norton (possibly all 3) Cheated to beat Cooper and lost to Shavers

 

He lost the first Frazier fight


Re: The holding in Ali-Frazier 2


"Fraziers' people complained that it [Ali's holding behind the head] kept Joe from working on the inside. And it's true; Ali was very strong. He'd pull guys down by the back of the neck and no one was strong enough to pull back. If you let a guy do that all night it wears you down. But I couldn't do anything because it was like Joe was happy laying on Ali's chest, waiting for me to break them apart. That's the way it was the whole fight. Joe would come in, punching, bobbing, weaving. He'd score one or two shots, and then just lay there in the clinch like he was resting. All he had to do was bend at the knees. Get down low so Ali can't hold anymore. He's shorter than Ali, so Ali can't hold him beyond a certain point. And once Joe's free, he'd be in position to come up punching. His own corner kept telling him to do that, but it seemed like he was content to be in a clinch."


-Tony Perez- Referee for Ali-Frazier 2


Re Ali- Frazier 3

Padilla ( Carlos Padilla - Referee for Ali- Frazier 3) said that even if Futch hadn’t told him to do so, he probably would have called the fight. “Because Frazier was no more.”


https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2025/10/ali-frazier-thrilla-in-manila-history/683972/?gift=QZgsIxhSIWQAj9iMCK3npZEs7_7XTUJr2l1ISveeifI&utm_source=email&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=social

Re- Clay (Ali-Cooper 1)

But the gap between rounds four and five - the moment of the torn glove incident - was, precisely, one minute and six seconds

In other words, only six seconds more than all the other intervals.


https://www.bbc.com/news/16985467

Re: Ali- Shavers

• Referee: Johnny LoBianco 9-5
• Judge: Tony Castellano 9-6
• Judge: Eva Shain 9-6

• Unofficial AP scorecard: 10-5 Ali
• Unofficial UPI scorecard: 8-6-1 Ali

 

Almost Forgot

Re: Ali- Norton 2

• Referee: Dick Young 7-5
• Judge: John Thomas 6-5
• Judge: George Latka 5-6

• Unofficial AP scorecard: 6-5 Norton
• Unofficial UPI scorecard: 9-2 Ali
• Unofficial LB Independent scorecard: 8-4 Ali
• Unofficial Pasadena Star-News scorecards (2 reporters covering the fight): 7-5 Norton and 7-5 Ali
• Unofficial ringside poll of sportswriters: 8 scored it for Ali, 6 scored it for Norton, and 1 scored it even

Re:Ali- Norton 3

• Referee: Arthur Mercante 6-8
• Judge: Harold Lederman 7-8
• Judge: Barney Smith 7-8

• Unofficial AP scorecard: 9-6 Ali; unofficial UPI scorecard: 8-7 Norton.

Those fans and reporters who weren’t in tears were shaking with anger. The outcry over the decision was such that CBS organized a panel of celebrity judges to score the bout as they watched the replay a week later.

Schuyler thought CBS’ idea was fatally flawed.

"It’s impossible to score a fight in which you already know the result," he said.

For the record, Schuyler scored the bout 9-6 Ali, and he did so without an ounce of doubt or regret.

"I don’t know what the controversy was about because I couldn’t see any," he declared. "Ali took the fight and Norton didn’t. Close? Yes. But close doesn’t count except in quakes. I’ve never, ever thought over the years that Norton might have won the fight. From where I sat, Ali dictated the pace with his jab and right hand. It was an even fight after eight rounds and then Ali took charge. Norton came forward, but you don’t get points just for coming forward. It was Ali’s fight and I have no qualms about the decision or the way I scored it."

Ed Schuyler- AP Beat Writer and IBHOF inductee

 

The gap wasn't the problem, the smelling salts were, they were illegal back then.