Which Heavyweight Is Possibly Overrated Because Of Nostalgia?

It shows you're biased and not objective with your scoring is what it shows.

Your scoring is all over the place.

Ali was lackluster in the first 9 rounds with Shavers having a lead.

Yet you only had 1 round for Ali when he actually started to open up and do significantly better in the final 5 or 6 rounds.

So either you deliberately scored all of Ali's best rounds in the final 3rd of the fight as even to conjure up a wide scorecard for Shavers.

Or you can't score a fight it's a simple at that 3 rounds for Ali is an absolute farce.

Clueless ? how about keep tracking of what you're saying..

You made a statement earlier in this thread that there's "no way Ali won".

But you saw half of the rounds as being even hence you consider half of the rounds as debatable rounds. So if you think 7 rounds are debatable then Ali has a strong case for winning the fight.

Yes we are all well aware of what an even round is a close debatable round where you can't split the action between the two fighters.

The problem is your scorecard has a major anomaly in the final 6 rounds somehow having 4 even rounds.

And it's quite convenient how the majority of your "even rounds" are when Ali has some of his better rounds of the fight late on.

Because you're a dishonest hater trying to pull the wool over my eyes and it's not gonna wash i'm afraid.

And it's hilarious how you're questioning my mentality when you conjure up an abysmal scorecard that anyone can see is a complete agenda driven drivel.

Yeah my bad everyone else on planet earth who has a complete polar opposite scorecard to you is wrong.

Because there isn't 7 even rounds in this fight.....you conveniently just scored 4 out of the last 6 rounds as even which were Ali's best moments of the fight. It's clear as day what you did and anyone with half a brain can see what you did.

Yes but there isn't 7 even rounds in this fight how many times do i have to say it.

All you did was conveniently score Ali's best rounds of the fight in the final 6 rounds as even.

Looking at your scorecard every round you deemed as even you didn't give Ali any of those rounds yet you gave Shavers 2 of them.

Of course it doesn't that's why you have the most bizarre scorecard that i've ever seen that doesn't resemble any other scorecard on the fight.

As for me being a fan boy of Ali ? Holmes is my favourite Heavyweight BTW. And i had Ali losing to Norton in their 3rd fight, and i didn't think Ali beat Young either i scored it a draw just because of the 10-8 point deduction.

So if you're suggesting i fan boy over Ali and score every close fight he had for him you're completely wrong.

And that suggestion is pretty rich coming from the guy who admitted he dislikes Ali, and then posts an abysmal scorecard on an Ali fight and then tries to proclaim you're objective.

Shavers had nothing left he stumbled into the ropes and didn't land a single punch back in Ali's final flurry. I could easily see Shavers visiting the canvas with 20 or 30 more seconds.

And alot of judges and scorers would see that as round for Ali because of how hurt Shavers was.

 

Liston did quit in Lewiston, overwhelmed by the craziness, death threats, Ali looming over him "get up you bum, nobody is going to believe this", but the flash kd was real. Yes Sonny's motivation was gone.

I am skeptical of that later film evaluation-especially since even if true, it could have been his shoulder went near the end of the fight.
I do not think you should assume Doctor corruption re: the medical evaluation.

Especially since you are very wrong about that hoary old rumor that Dundee loosened the ropes.
Fact is they had ordered the wrong rope size for the ring.
Dundee famously did not know about, nor want to Ali to pull the ope a dope.
Ali reassured him between rounds, & here is that history + other similar strategies used by boxers back to the 1920's-Ali did not invent it, &he had trained with Archie Moore when first encountering it.

https://www.quora.com/Did-Ali-loosen-the-ropes-for-the-Foreman-fight

 

Prime versus prime is overused to measure historical worth, and dominance does not always measure greatness. Boxing fans make these mistakes most often when assigning value to all-time victories. When thinking about what was Muhammad Ali’s greatest performance, I am less attracted to the usual suspects, the matches where Ali utterly destroyed the opposition. Some of boxing’s most legendary wins, although clear expressions of dominance, are overrated as meaningful tests of the victor’s greatness. And I would argue that Ali’s true value did not become fully evident until after he ceased to dominate and encountered new and more arduous, and hence, more meaningful, tests.

...


Known even by the casual fan, perhaps undeservedly, as one of the three heaviest hitters in boxing history, Shavers faced Ali when the aging champion’s loss of speed and compromised fundamentals made him easy to hit. During what was undoubtedly the finest performance of his career, Shavers would land the biggest blows he could summon, many times, but Ali’s chin held up repeatedly, and as he took those bone-jarring punches, Ali figured out ways to prevent Shavers from following up and taking further advantage.

...

It’s one thing to be great, and Ali surely was great at his peak, more so than any other heavyweight. But what really makes Muhammad Ali a part of the all-time, pound-for-pound conversation is his post-prime excellence. No great fighter in boxing history depended more on an entirely different set of strengths in the second half of his career and still achieved as much as Ali, and that statement takes into account remarkable later-stage comebacks by George Foreman, Bernard Hopkins, and Roberto Duran.


To think that the dancing master with the razor-sharp reflexes and blinding hand speed would successfully fight off the ropes against Foreman, and then stand toe-to-toe with Frazier and Shavers, is as preposterous a scenario as Sugar Ray Leonard physically dominating Marvelous Marvin Hagler and putting him down for the count. To my knowledge Ali is the only great who completely re-purposed himself in his post-prime, radically altering his go-to skill set, his most reliable tools, to fit the challenges that came with age and more formidable opposition.

...

https://www.thefightcity.com/ali-vs-shavers-finest-hour-boxing/

 

This back and forth is ridiculous and hilarious.

You know what he’s like.

 

Ali was cooked when he fought Shavers in colloquial terms and was in the early stages of Parkinson's in clinical terms.

 

Sure he wasn't at his peak anymore but it seems plausible he could have won more titles. I'm merely arguing that he probably had more left in the tank than Federer or Nadal did when they retired and certainly more than Djokovic has the last few years.

These guys continued playing until it was obvious they had no hope whatsoever of more big wins.

 

Worth noting that during his career there were time/periods when Foreman was expressly trying to keep his weight down.

Foreman’s first pro fight saw him at 219 lbs at a much younger age than Usyk was for his own HW debut for which Olek weighed 215 lbs.

Some of Foreman’s earlier fights saw him at 220 lbs plus also. Foreman’s actual top weight in his first career was 231 1/2 lbs vs Dino Dennis.

I averaged Usyk’s weights as a HW (sans his last fight because he really didn’t carry 233 1/2 lbs viably) and came up with 221.5 lbs.

Personally, I think he was at full stretch when he hit his then top career weights of 226/227 lbs for the Fury and Dubois rematches respectively.

 

Tyson-Paul was, indeed, sanctioned.

You can find it right there on his record, same as his fights with Trevor Berbick, Buster Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis.

https://boxrec.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fight:3158624

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_Paul_vs._Mike_Tyson

https://www.*******.com/articles/details-texas-sanctions-mike-tyson-jake-paul-professional-fight

I can give you dozens of affirming links.

If one state or another didn’t sanction Ali vs Holmes, they’d have shopped it around to various venues domestic and abroad until they found a commission that would take the bag.

Keep in mind that Ali also fought again, against a contender (Trevor Berbick), after Holmes.

 

Valdes had lost to two journeyman going into the fight with Liston and certainly wasn't number 2 and probably outside the top 10

 

Just on Zaire and the loose ropes, of course it was legit for Dundee to scrutinise the ring before the fight but, honest, non - cheating purposes notwithstanding, was it entirely legit for Dundee to actually adjust/modify the ropes - at least not so legit without the presence (as it reads) of Foreman’s team and other relevant officials along with their due concurrence?

Foreman’s team actually did try to adjust the ropes during the course of the fight but Dundee screamed them away.

Not that Dundee wasn’t a savvy cornerman - he certainly was - but he did also go out of his way to advertise himself as such and present himself as significant contributor to several of Ali successes.

There was the admission of illegally worsening an existing glove tear vs Cooper with the intent to buy time - but ultimately, barely any time was bought.

There was also Dundee pushing a blinded Ali out for round 5 vs Liston despite Ali wanting to take off the gloves due to alleged foul play.

There was also Dundee’s relating of how he was able to indirectly influence the otherwise autonomous Ali to work on certain features of his game in the gym.

 

I know it was.

It was changed from an exhibition, which was crazy.

2 min rounds.

A 16 min fight.

Ridiculous.


Yes, I completely agree with the greed.

However, IMHO, we wouldn’t have seen Holmes-Ali, because I think that he’d have been retired by then in the modern era.

I think he’d have just failed the stringent medicals and the scans.

I think the Parkinson’s would have been detected and diagnosed earlier today.

That’s my opinion.

He slurred his speech and he looked awful.


Again, I agree with the greed though.

That will never change.

 

I'll keep it short. The Djokovic literally lost the Australian Open final in January, in 4 sets. Few means 3 or more where i come from, he won 3 grand slam tournaments in 2023. He won Gold in 2024.

His problem, besides injury and age, is that suddenly two stupendous tennis players have finally appeared and are simply too good for an aging joker.

Also, if Sampras had more to give than them he wouldn't have retired. Sport is mental as well.

 

Exactly take away Sinner/Alcaraz and Djokovic would probably be on like 30 grand slams right now.

When Djokovic lost to Alcaraz in their 1st Wimbledon encounter. He'd won 3 out of the 4 grand slams Alcaraz literally stopped him winning all 4 that season.

So despite Djokovic being past his prime the only 2 players who consistently beat him in Grand Slams are Sinner/Alcaraz who are probably future ATGs they are already considered great.

Sampras when he retired was not considered a top 3 player like Djokovic was he was ranked 34th at the time of his retirement.

Also Sampras who was one of the best serve & volley players of all time. That style of play was starting to die out, that's why baseliners like Hewitt were really starting to dominate him winning 5 out of their last 6 matches.

 

I think Usyks height advantage potentially makes it easier to bulk up successfully and reduces the height difference between him and his opponents.
Part of the reason I'm skeptical about Liston doing well today is that nobody his height has been top dog at heavyweight in 30 years. And there are no prospects on the horizon that seem likely to change that trend. So at a minimum we are looking at a 35 plus year drought where someone his height achieved any sort of dominance.

The point about Fury and Joshua having poor gas tanks is fair but they don't represent the division as a whole and in order to dominate today you would have to fight other opponents. Presumably we are talking about a scenario where the 70s heavyweight don't just face these two.

Let's wait and see how Itauma does in his next fight for example

 

Ali was one of the greatest natural born fighters in American history. Not talking the boxing (which he mastered.. quick study).