Did jack Johnson draw a color line himself?

The rest of us wouldn't blame Johnson for that but Mendoza would!lol
Of course we know Johnson beat Martin over 20rds on Feb3rd1903 for Martin's Coloured Heavyweight title and in defending it, ko'd him in 2rounds on Oct18th 1904.Martin was out for several minutes.
BTW The Martin bout was set to be a scheduled exhibition not a title defence before Martin pulled out and McLaglen was substituted .Six foot three, 198lbs McLaglen was like a baby in Johnson's hands,after flooring him and hurting him badly with a left to the body,Johnson took it easy on him .

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So Johnson did in fact "Struggle" with Battling Jim then? LOL. You insisted on another thread you never said that.

You said:

Johnson did not struggle with Battling Jim ,I have the round by round summary of this fight,you are confusing me with somebody else,like a little dog with a smelly bone you return to it every so often, and your original point is fallacious because I never said Jack struggled with him! I'm happy for you to find that post you say I made and post it here , if you do and you are correct I will admit it and eat crow how's that?

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...ecisive-advantage.751934/page-4#post-23908330

 

A better representation is that Jack Johnson reneged on an "understanding" that black prospects who got farmed wouldn't have that held against them later on when they were in their prime. That "understanding" is one "black boxing" was built on from the 1890s to 1920s. Johnson had wins over novices who dramatically improved to become the highest ranked fighters in the world and Johnson cashed in those early wins in to avoid fighting them.

There is also a chance Johnson was going to rematch Langford and/or Jeanette after the Paris doubleheader due to French pressure. But whatever pressure, politics and or agreements were there died with Archduke Franz Ferdinand.

I don't think Johnson meant to set a color barrier and the agenda was to avoid fighting individuals who just so happened to be black. Technically in December 1913 Jim Johnson was the highest ranked black contender Jack hadn't fought and was also the first "new" black contender since Jack had won the belt. If we take out the understanding above Jack could claim to have fought all the top black HW's before Wills came along. And that's why he got away with it. "I beat them already" is a compelling defense to the accusation of ducking.

 

What do you say to the fact that Johnson twice signed to defend against Jeannette in NYC only to have the NYAC veto the fights? How about the fact that Johnson signed to defend against both McVey and Langford in Australia,only to have the promoter pull the fights when public opinion and the church turned against Johnson when he jumped bail?

 

For 3 rounds Johnson was in charge,then he broke his left arm. Obviously I have no recollection of saying that he struggled with Battling Jim, but you have found my post ,and I did , and so fair dues to you for doing so.You are right,and I was totally wrong! Something I don't find difficult to admit to when its been proved, kudos to you!
I'm eating the crow now,fortunately I'm washing it down with a zero alcohol Clausthaller, which makes it easier to swallow.

 

If we look at the modern day there's a whole iceberg of fights that don't get made which were agreed to in some capacity. And this is in the social media age. Johnson was also supposed to fight Iron Hague etc. That guy who summarizes these early decades(who we've both interacted in the past but who has not reached the 1910s in his summary's) really drives home how many of these fights were planned in some capacity but fall through.


I am focusing on the IBU/french bit over the Aussie bit because it effected the timeline more(kinda like how the aborted Dempsey v Wills fight in 24 effected the timeline more than other attempts to make that fight)but not denying that happened. The whole Langford/McVea in Australia thing was a chapter and trying to make Johnson be a part of that makes sense.

Anyway the heart of the dispute here is Langford. While Johnson would have otherwise been expected to fight Jeanette or McVea I hold him not fighting Jeanette again much less and hold him not fighting McVea again much less than that. Langford was the titlelist for years and threat to Johnson's status and Jeanette and McVea were just the highest rated contenders. While Johnson beat McVea as a teen McVea was the best HW of the trio at the time Johnson fought them. And McVea only was atop the black HW rankings for a brief window at the very end of Johnson's reign.

 

This is all great information, and I appreciate your knowledge on the subject. The only thing that has always bothered me a bit is, if he could manage to fight a second tier black fighter like Battling Jim Johnson in Paris, I just don't understand why the the same thing could not have been done for Langford. I mean, if the money were there for Jim Johnson in Paris, why not for Sam Langford?

A lot of people use the argument that Dempsey signed to fight Wills...they will argue that Holmes tried to unify against Coetzee. All these guys are just kind of in the same place to me. Maybe they could have tried a little harder.

But yeah, good stuff. And no real dog in the fight from me. There isn't any doubt that Johnson was the best heavy of the era.

 

Johnson was broke in Paris the Battling Jim fight was intended to be an easy cash grab for a few bucks ,which is how the first three rounds played out,but when Johnson broke the radial bone in his left arm,his dominance faded and he was faced with a strong determined challenger whom in his arrogance and conceit he had not seriously trained for .Johnson's edge in skill enabled him to get a draw , stories of him being on the verge of a ko are BS ,AP reports from scribes who were not present,though Johnson ran out of puff a few times ,he was never in danger of being stopped. To answer your question Johnson named $30,000 as his price for a title defence,and when it was met regardless of the opponent he agreed to the fight.The Battling Jim fight was a case of a cynical champion,on his uppers taking a tiny purse ,believing he had nothing to beat ,as it turned out ,he almost outsmarted himself . To give a comparison , I have no idea what Fury or Joshua received for their last farcical fights,but I'm certain they will demand appreciably more to face each other. I think Johnson at his best beats,Langford,Jeanette and McVey at their best,[ a poster on here thinks all three beat him,] but by1915 Johnson was no longer at his best and hadn't been for 5 years,since the Jeffries fight in1910 . Johnson lived life high on the hog, he dissipated himself with women and booze,and he was aging, to whip himself into shape to face these dangerous challengers,Johnson wanted top dollar,is that unreasonable? He had waited for years for his title chance ,not getting it till he was 30 ,now spending money like water he was always in a cash flow situation. When a hypothetical match withJack Dempsey was mooted Joe Louis said,"I would want to be very well paid for that fight." Perfectly understandable imo.

 

He probably didn’t draw it himself, rather the promoters drawing it.

 

Why not draw the color line everyone else did. Even Joe Louis did. Wasn’t until after WW 2 that color line came down. Louis lost to the first 2 black fighters he fought after WW 2.
Johnson was the Negro Heavyweight champ when he won the title so that’s very solid. After that of course he’s going to take the best money for the least risk. Whether he eventually would have been beaten sooner if he fought the best black heavy’s probably so but what’s the point? He was the best black fighter then won the title and if he had to get in top shape he would have probably beaten any of the best black fighters as well.
By the time he fought Willard he was living high and on the run from the law so was no longer fighting at his best. If Willard beat him there might have been black fighters that could have also. But the money I’m sure was no comparison to what he made to fight the great white hope.

 

I agree with the most of your post,but Louis never drew any colour line.His promoter, Mike Jacobs was convinced two blacks would not
draw.
Louis had to really pressureJacobs to put on Louis v Lewis.

 

The draw isn’t the point it’s avoiding fighting them that makes a color line. There was lots of reasons also not to have blacks in baseball too but the fact they weren’t there meant there was a color line.

 

Jim Johnson was technically the highest ranked black HW Jack Johnson hadn't fought in 12/13. He was not a random guy.

Also that fight was a double header. Langford and Jeanette fought the next day for the IBU title. All 4 men were in Paris at the time.

Maybe Johnson and Langford were going to fight next. The French and proto IBU were facilitating that whole thing and they got taken out of the picture by the Guns of August.

 

One thing to remember about the Johnson - Johnson fight is that Jack was already signed to meet Frank Moran the following month, so Battling Jim was really just being treated as a warm-up. As it turned out, Jack's arm injury meant a long delay before the Moran fight could take place.

 

But the better fighters never got title shots.