I did call Joe Jr. at a later time to confirm my understanding of Joe Sr's height. I was getting a lot of condescending guff from Frank Lotierzo, who until then I had much admired for is very erudite writings on the sport. Alas, countering his notion that Frazier's listing of 5.11.5 was as ludicrous as Tyson doing so lent to his dissing me like I was his ADD teen stepson. Lotierzo insisted that at a banquet he and they attended Joe "towered over Tyson." So I celled Joe Jr. (always relaxed and receptive) and he said "Dad was at most 5'10 like me." He knew Lotierzo (both live in Philly) so I asked Joe Jr. for permission to give Lotierzo his cell to ask the same question and he said sure. I mailed Lotierzo the # and true to form never heard a further peep. Foreman (and you can find this) said "Joe never saw 5'10." My dogs could look at a pic of Ali and Joe center ring for instructions and ascertain a 5 inch dif (and remember Ali went on record saying he was in fact just 6.2.5" ). Best of all (for me at least) I actually ran a mile one winter night with Joe. I was in school in Boston and his band stopped there as part of a tour. I read in the Boston Globe sports where the gig was and it said he was doing roadwork afterward with a comeback against Kallie Knoetze in the works (so late winter of '78). I went and staked it out just before 2AM and sure enough soon Joe comes along in a gray sweat suit and converse (no head covering or neck towel) with a Caddy taking up the rear. I waved my hands and eased toward him and said I was a long-time fan and current Golden Glover sparring partner / college student and could I run with him. Without the slightest alarm he gave me a quick glance up and down and said "Sure, why not" and we did a mile (the Caddy didn't react by zooming up to check on me which speaks to that different time). To ingratiate I said I was hopeful Marvis would make the '80 Olys (thanks Jimmy Carter!) and he smiled hugely and said "I hope so, too." At run's end we paused face to face and he cracked a smile and offered to have me driven back to the staring point but I said thanks no bother I want to jog back and think about what a special experience he just gave me. Specific to this thread, we stood face to face to shake hands and I was an even 6'0 at the time and struck by how much shorter he was and being barely a lightheavy thought of Foster towering over him center ring. I went back to my crib and said to my roommate (a fighter-student) "Damn! Joe must be 5'9!" As to Tyson, beyond further common sense looking at him center ring with whomever, I once drove Randy Neumann to Atlantic City when he was going to ref Nigel Benn v. Doug DeWitt. Back in the division's greatest era Randy cracked the top 10 (and summarily took a whipping from Quarry). I had written Randy after his piece on attending neurology clinic for refs appeared in the NY Times (1990ish). I was doing a pediatric neuro fellowship in Jersey at the time and Randy called and invited me to accompany him. He had an older Mercedes and wanted me to drive. Among a thousand other boxing topics during the trip I wondered about Tyson's height and with no hesitation he said "5'9 for a fact." In closing, the one ATG whose height I wish I could have determined if not by standing face-to-face then at least by such an esteemed source was Qawi. Fair to say that the question of his height lingers more so than any other ATG (agreed?) and probably because it was more off-the-grid for his divisions and MUCH taller ATG opponents than anyone else in the history of the sport (but for the color barrier and Johnson ducking him for a title shot Sam Langford would probably be right up there with him on the ?). So I can sleep at night I long ago decided Dwight was not as short as 5'5 or tall as 5'7.5 but probably 5.6+ish.
Thanks and it didn't let me edit the typo "...back to the staring point." Almost impossible to avoid a typo in a long post with no edit program
I’m 5-8 1/2 and was very close to Dwight Muhammad Qawi when I attended Holy-Qawi I (I mean up close, not seeing him in the ring from my seat) and he was a bit shorter than me standing straight up — I’d believe 5-7 and maybe 5-7 1/2 but no way he was taller than that … I wouldn’t be shocked if he was 5-6 1/2 barefoot.
What I got best from all that was jogging with Joe Frazier … you can have Ali, Tyson, Foreman, all the rest (except maybe Holmes); there’s no other fighter than Frazier who I wish I’d met. There just seemed to be an integrity to him that eclipsed the others. Good on ya.
Thanks and glad you could feel the Joe story. Ali also did me right when I made a pilgrimage to him and sooner than later I'll post the PDF from my Sports Illustrated memoir.
I think Joe might’ve worn a bit of extra heel in more formal settings. Back in the 70s, big heels of varying degrees were quite the thing so having a heel that was that little bit more than the average going around at the time was less detectable I guess. Norton liked big heels also and in some photos they actually made him appear a bit taller than even Foreman at times. Ali however was always a basic dress shoe guy with standard heel. No Elton John platforms for Muhammad. No sir.
Glad you shared an in-the-flesh moment. I found and attach the best thread out there on the compelling subject of a deceased boxer's height and it affirms our take that Dwight was 5.6.5 so I think we can be content with it hereafter...is it a wonder females are confounded by what can occupy the male mind? https://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=262031
You're right on both accounts. Indeed, the Superfly shoes look not kosher for a Muslim minister. As to Norton I bummed my grandma's car in Connecticut and pocketed some college boy birthday money and went to the Ali-Young fight (my one chance to ever see Ali fight live). I can still hear the body shots Ken put on poor Ron Stander (I was only a few rows back and they sounded like big water balloons hitting the pavement from 5 stories up). I slept in the car and next morning Ken was in line solo checking out in platforms and holding a boom box. Nobody was around him so I approached and asked for the autograph I knew I'd lose a la Marciano's. He wedged the boombox between his legs and when I said I could hold it and reached for it he said "I got it." I said 224 is big for you and he said "Lotta good food" and I said he was carrying it really well. Even though he was solo and surprisingly nobody was with him or approaching him he sure wasn't giving me a let's chat vibe so I backed off and said "Great luck in the title shot"
Ken could certainly punch and perhaps his power of punch still might be a touch underrated a bit in today’s world. Not to the degree that stablemate Frazier did but Ken kinda “smoked” in his own way when he got into the groove of his more dedicated power punching displays, getting extreme leverage on his more badly intended shots. I also think it can reasonably argued that Ken would present as an extremely tough opponent for Usyk. Just imo, Ken’s true worth didn’t come down to him just being a stylistic bogeyman for Ali. Certainly, Norton’s demonstrated viabilities against the likes of Holmes and prime Young can’t be washed based on that oversimplified premise.
