Favourite Technique Wells?

George Crowcroft · Jul 31, 2026

McGrain said: ↑

Well i'm a LaMotta-Robinson VI fanatic and in that fight Robinson, IMO, was coming up short with enough frequency to trick LaMotta into operating as though there was safety, not strategically, but tactically, I mean in seven second bursts, in corners of rounds, I won't go into detail here but I will say that watching that fight fills me with sorrow sometimes. Robinson worshipped Louis, wept at seeing him defeated, and this, for me, was the greatest gift ever exchanged between two fighters: Louis made Robinson see that offence was not enough, that you had to convince your opponent, that despite being a mobile rampart, it was sometimes safe to attack you. LaMotta, the most hopeful fighter ever to have boxed, a bastion of optimism within the ring, repeatedly, had his hope rekindled by the greatest offence machine to have lived. I went through a fifteen year period of obsessively watching the lions of the Serengeti (and to its east) duke it out over generations once the internet got up and running for real, and i saw more than a few die, and what struck me about them was that they never stop looking at the horizon until they're gone. LaMotta was like that in that fight. He never allowed himself to give up until his nervous system considered him slaughtered.

I might do this properly one day, but for now, and insisting upon none of this in discussion with anyone else:

This content is protected

Robinson does two things with his jab in the opening rounds. He either doesn't fully extend it (see above) or he lands it lightly, without following through. There are many reasons why this is a good idea, for example, have you found your own range yet before over-committing against an opponent that's already coming up and under? But another reason, and it's lost to the world, is to fault your opponent's range. How many more inches do you think are on this jab than Robinson gives here? 4-6? A few, that's for sure, elbow crooked, punch is coming out to Robinson's right rather than through the target, it's an invitation to miscalibration. Remember, this is against an opponent Robinson knows cannot knock him out. Meanwhile, LaMotta knows his range, but of every single aspect of fighting between familiar opponents, whether it's men who have sparred or fought, calibration of the distance is the most untrustworthy and messy. It's so difficult, full of sound and fury, and even months ago is so long ago. Robinson is lying to LaMotta here about the distance, and he keeps it up for many rounds.

This content is protected
T
This is a flat out missed punch and the key thing to remember is: I can't prove that Robinson "missed" (and quite often these are cuffing or scoring or glancing blows anyway) on purpose, he could just be missing and then taking advantage but that's not my opinion. This, specifically, is where Robinson wants LaMotta to think he is safe. Up and under, coming in from low, obtaining a stoop from Robinson which makes it hard for him to get onto the back foot - note the full weight of Robinson through the toes - to open up two further punches. 1) the big "solver" which is the right hand to the body. You can see, already, that LaMotta is ready to sell his body to Robinson in order to facilitate his own offence. Given that this punch was the total solution for Robinson to LaMotta's work inside the importance of achieving this cannot be overstated. The most important punch in LaMotta-Robinson VI is this right hand to the body and Robinson steers LaMotta from the first round into these channels to open it up. I can't be sure of course how much success or not Robinson had with this punch in earlier fights (it gets mentioned in reporting for one of the other fights) but it's definitely thee punch in this one.

This content is protected

This is another example from a little later, and one thing to note is what a perfect punching position Robinson has adopted, he's got LaMotta leaning away, with no offence on the table, in what for a very tall fighter is basically the upper midriff on the left hand side, the literal easiest portion of an opponent for the orthodox fighter to hit and LaMotta has put his head there and Robinson doesn't hit it. He wants LaMotta up that pipe for, in the first instance, the right hand to the body, not a normal one though, a lashing one round the corner.

I was grabbing some pictures for the next little section but it's so instructive I made a gif instead. Probably won't publish but:

It's two thirds of the way there because you see Robinson NOT throw the jab against a wide open target, avoid the punch that LaMotta wants to throw to get inside, throw the "light" version of his dangerous jab but get caught on his heels and allows LaMotta to land the left hook. If only he'd landed his own punch! It would have been perfect, but there is no shortage of Robinson landing a gentle jab or a non-jab and opening up Robinson for the bodyshot or even an uppercut in the mid-late stages of that fight. He spent the whole fight setting him up for the fight to be contested exactly where Robinson wanted it to be contested on the outside even when on the inside. The longest punches Robinson threw in that fight were when they were head to head.

This content is protected

Missed or nothing jab in the ninth.

This content is protected

Less than a second later he's brought LaMotta up the channel that the weak jab makes seem safe and guts him like a fish to the body. Awww it's so good, so amazing good, this is what Arcel meant by "mental energy" I think, the never ending quest for the manner by which to deploy his athletic gifts and the specific reason why I sit at home laughing at people on here who want to say Leonard was better. Leonard didn't have a third, a quarter of the rounds you need to find this type of perfect solution to a problem your world-class opponent doesn't even know he has given you. Robinson's monstrous genius.
Click to expand...

This content is protected

Robinson was a genius, in so many ways. You've made me ever more convinced that Floyd gets thoroughly annihilated by him.

McGrain · Jul 31, 2026

George Crowcroft said: ↑

This content is protected

Robinson was a genius, in so many ways. You've made me ever more convinced that Floyd gets thoroughly annihilated by him.
Click to expand...

I genuinely don’t say it lightly because Floyd is of the highest class as a boxer, but his chances against Robinson aren’t that serious. Floyd’s not falling for anything in that post though.

JohnThomas1 · Jul 31, 2026

George Crowcroft said: ↑

How would you say you've seen Robi use missed jabs?
Click to expand...

Take a look at Curtis Cokes. He loved to jab slightly outside his opponents face to herd them into his right. It's pretty basic as far as missed jabs go but it worked well for him.

Ioakeim Tzortzakis · Jul 31, 2026

McGrain said: ↑

Well i'm a LaMotta-Robinson VI fanatic and in that fight Robinson, IMO, was coming up short with enough frequency to trick LaMotta into operating as though there was safety, not strategically, but tactically, I mean in seven second bursts, in corners of rounds, I won't go into detail here but I will say that watching that fight fills me with sorrow sometimes. Robinson worshipped Louis, wept at seeing him defeated, and this, for me, was the greatest gift ever exchanged between two fighters: Louis made Robinson see that offence was not enough, that you had to convince your opponent, that despite being a mobile rampart, it was sometimes safe to attack you. LaMotta, the most hopeful fighter ever to have boxed, a bastion of optimism within the ring, repeatedly, had his hope rekindled by the greatest offence machine to have lived. I went through a fifteen year period of obsessively watching the lions of the Serengeti (and to its east) duke it out over generations once the internet got up and running for real, and i saw more than a few die, and what struck me about them was that they never stop looking at the horizon until they're gone. LaMotta was like that in that fight. He never allowed himself to give up until his nervous system considered him slaughtered.

I might do this properly one day, but for now, and insisting upon none of this in discussion with anyone else:

This content is protected

Robinson does two things with his jab in the opening rounds. He either doesn't fully extend it (see above) or he lands it lightly, without following through. There are many reasons why this is a good idea, for example, have you found your own range yet before over-committing against an opponent that's already coming up and under? But another reason, and it's lost to the world, is to fault your opponent's range. How many more inches do you think are on this jab than Robinson gives here? 4-6? A few, that's for sure, elbow crooked, punch is coming out to Robinson's right rather than through the target, it's an invitation to miscalibration. Remember, this is against an opponent Robinson knows cannot knock him out. Meanwhile, LaMotta knows his range, but of every single aspect of fighting between familiar opponents, whether it's men who have sparred or fought, calibration of the distance is the most untrustworthy and messy. It's so difficult, full of sound and fury, and even months ago is so long ago. Robinson is lying to LaMotta here about the distance, and he keeps it up for many rounds.

This content is protected
T
This is a flat out missed punch and the key thing to remember is: I can't prove that Robinson "missed" (and quite often these are cuffing or scoring or glancing blows anyway) on purpose, he could just be missing and then taking advantage but that's not my opinion. This, specifically, is where Robinson wants LaMotta to think he is safe. Up and under, coming in from low, obtaining a stoop from Robinson which makes it hard for him to get onto the back foot - note the full weight of Robinson through the toes - to open up two further punches. 1) the big "solver" which is the right hand to the body. You can see, already, that LaMotta is ready to sell his body to Robinson in order to facilitate his own offence. Given that this punch was the total solution for Robinson to LaMotta's work inside the importance of achieving this cannot be overstated. The most important punch in LaMotta-Robinson VI is this right hand to the body and Robinson steers LaMotta from the first round into these channels to open it up. I can't be sure of course how much success or not Robinson had with this punch in earlier fights (it gets mentioned in reporting for one of the other fights) but it's definitely thee punch in this one.

This content is protected

This is another example from a little later, and one thing to note is what a perfect punching position Robinson has adopted, he's got LaMotta leaning away, with no offence on the table, in what for a very tall fighter is basically the upper midriff on the left hand side, the literal easiest portion of an opponent for the orthodox fighter to hit and LaMotta has put his head there and Robinson doesn't hit it. He wants LaMotta up that pipe for, in the first instance, the right hand to the body, not a normal one though, a lashing one round the corner.

I was grabbing some pictures for the next little section but it's so instructive I made a gif instead. Probably won't publish but:

It's two thirds of the way there because you see Robinson NOT throw the jab against a wide open target, avoid the punch that LaMotta wants to throw to get inside, throw the "light" version of his dangerous jab but get caught on his heels and allows LaMotta to land the left hook. If only he'd landed his own punch! It would have been perfect, but there is no shortage of Robinson landing a gentle jab or a non-jab and opening up Robinson for the bodyshot or even an uppercut in the mid-late stages of that fight. He spent the whole fight setting him up for the fight to be contested exactly where Robinson wanted it to be contested on the outside even when on the inside. The longest punches Robinson threw in that fight were when they were head to head.

This content is protected

Missed or nothing jab in the ninth.

This content is protected

Less than a second later he's brought LaMotta up the channel that the weak jab makes seem safe and guts him like a fish to the body. Awww it's so good, so amazing good, this is what Arcel meant by "mental energy" I think, the never ending quest for the manner by which to deploy his athletic gifts and the specific reason why I sit at home laughing at people on here who want to say Leonard was better. Leonard didn't have a third, a quarter of the rounds you need to find this type of perfect solution to a problem your world-class opponent doesn't even know he has given you. Robinson's monstrous genius.
Click to expand...

Nah you're not seeing things, you're right on the money. There's some extremely clear footage of Robinson throwing these noncommittal jabs on the double-end bag, and you can almost feel the "lack of effort". The double-end bag is the second most unstable of all training bags and it's barely moving here. I've no doubt in my mind Robinson deliberately practised this sort of stuff.

https://mdc-wolfson-streaming.s3.amazonaws.com/streaming1/WC04764.mp4

Go to like, 4:50 in. It's got some rare Basilio training footage if you're into that as well. The footage is very sexy, you can really feel the presence and gravity behind the moves of these old fighters. Even the best pre 60s fight film doesn't quite capture that element the way modern cameras do.

McGrain · Aug 1, 2026

Ioakeim Tzortzakis said: ↑

Nah you're not seeing things, you're right on the money. There's some extremely clear footage of Robinson throwing these noncommittal jabs on the double-end bag, and you can almost feel the "lack of effort". The double-end bag is the second most unstable of all training bags and it's barely moving here. I've no doubt in my mind Robinson deliberately practised this sort of stuff.

https://mdc-wolfson-streaming.s3.amazonaws.com/streaming1/WC04764.mp4

Go to like, 4:50 in. It's got some rare Basilio training footage if you're into that as well. The footage is very sexy, you can really feel the presence and gravity behind the moves of these old fighters. Even the best pre 60s fight film doesn't quite capture that element the way modern cameras do.
Click to expand...

What fascinates me especially about Robinson in this fight is that he's informed by the five matches that have gone before. He's putting LaMotta in it from the very first round, it's so great.

Ioakeim Tzortzakis · Aug 1, 2026

McGrain said: ↑

What fascinates me especially about Robinson in this fight is that he's informed by the five matches that have gone before. He's putting LaMotta in it from the very first round, it's so great.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. This is why I wish fighters from that era had extended footage, so you can see the sort of stuff they learned while fighting world class opposition and see them grow. Tons of rounds and tons of rematches.

The entire murderer's row + Archie Moore would be the pinnacle of it, or just about. It'd be capable of feeding me and my descendants until the abolition of Boxing.

META5 · Aug 1, 2026

Following on from Macca's post-of-the-year breakdown on Robbi and LaMotta - it made me think.

The exact same principle is employed by Robbi in the famous KO of Fullmer. It's my favourite punch captured on film, but the fascinating part is the skill and delayed gratification employed by Robbi.

Macca's post dismantles the myth that Robbi was just relying on natural athletic gifts, revealing the deep, high-IQ spatial experiments he was actually running inside the ring.

To build on that point: Robbi used the exact same optical deception, footwork, and bodywork to set up the Fullmer knockout. People look at that single-punch KO and think Robbi just knocked him out going backwards. That's a simplified recount of what was actually a long, deliberate, hypnotic trap.

Here’s how Robinson actually executed it:

The visual lie and the body bait
Fullmer was a highly-skilled, brutal, crouching swarmer who relied on tracking the lead shoulder to anticipate the jab, slip inside, and smother.
In the early rounds, Robbi fed Fullmer a specific lead-shoulder tell - the exact same non-committal, probing jab highlighted against LaMotta. However, Robbi didn't just use it to measure distance; he used that false jab to open up the long right hand to the body.

Backwards footwork as a distance marker
While establishing this pattern, Robbi was deliberately circling and retreating, falsely ceding ground. This took the sting off Fullmer’s rushes, but more importantly, it established a false distance marker. Fullmer felt in total control, pushing the pace, convinced it was safe to keep barreling forward because Robbi supposedly couldn't generate finishing power moving backward.
Right before the knockout, Robbi lands a long right hand to the body. He circles back, maintains the retreat, and then throws that right hand to the body again.

Stopping on a dime: The biomechanical hack
This is where Robbi’s spatial genius comes together in Round 5.
Having just been conditioned by two right hands to the body while tracking a retreating fighter, Fullmer lunges in again. As Robbi shifts his lead shoulder, Fullmer instinctively drops his left hand, anticipating a third right hand to the body.
However, right as Fullmer commits his weight forward with his guard down, Robinson stops on a dime. Instead of continuing the retreat, Robbi plants his back foot, shifts his weight forward into the canvas, and pivots. He turns the shoulder over, changing the trajectory into a short, arching, brutal left hook.
Fullmer didn't excessively dip into the punch; Robbi deliberately baited him into dropping his hands with body shots, then planted his feet to deliver a maximum-leverage hook right as Fullmer stepped forward, moving his head into the sweet spot. Fullmer never saw it coming because until the final split second, every optical cue told him he was chasing a retreating fighter going back to the body.

As Macca pointed out, Robbi didn't just throw punches to land them; he threw them to miscalibrate his opponent’s internal radar. Whether it was using a shortened jab to draw LaMotta into range for a brutal right hand, or using retreating footwork and bodyshot bait to blindside Fullmer, Robbi was constantly playing chess with his opponent's spatial awareness, deliberately forcing their predictable response to punish them.

It’s the ultimate proof that Robbi wasn't just an incredibly gifted natural puncher; he possessed a master-level analytical mind to engineer absolute destruction.

It's exactly why I chuckle when we get into back-and-forth debates about the supposed evolution of boxing. I don't see any filmed evidence to dissuade my contention that Robbi, pre-Doyle, could very well stop, and I mean brutally KO, your favourite modern-day ATG.

George Crowcroft · Aug 1, 2026

I watched LaMotta vs Robi last night for the first time in a couple years and wrote up a couple of the things I found most interesting.

Pairing the Jab/Hook:

Robinson throws his jab with a lot of flicking or snapping at elbow, and he keeps those elbows out and flared. For most jabs, he simply flicks his arm forward and touches them; for the harder jabs, he puts the oomph into the punch by snapping at the elbow. He likes to circle to his left when he's working the jab; he can do it while moving or while his foot is anchored. The jab obviously plays a role throughout the bout, but it's the main instrument in the first few rounds.

LaMotta was attempting to counter jab Robinson; especially after he missed. As the fight progressed, Robinson began using these misses to throw counter-crosses over Jake's counter jabs.

Like his regular jab, he can throw the body jab while circling; which takes much more coordination and balance as you're level changing in the opposite direction which you're circling. These body jabs come harder than the average jab to the head it seems; as a good stiff body jab is sure to keep some distance; or at least put a little lump on their chest or belly.

One of the many things about Robinson which is fascinating, is his feints with his lead hand. He'll throw half a jab, he'll twitch at the elbow or shoulder; he'll drop down for a body jab and not throw it.

With the jabs which fall short and miss; the opponent learns to have less respect for the jab. The feints reinforce that belief; each feint convinces an opponent that a movement isn't necessarily a jab and they need to wait a little longer on each shot. It's a very well told lie. And those lies hide his left hook.

The left hook was a show stopper in this one. Sometimes Jake would wade in and Robi would just whip his hand across, catching him with the left hook. He'd flick his arm out then back in for a hook; he'd drop his weight down for a body jab then spring back up with a leaping hook. It wasn't uncommon to see Ray jab then slip then come back with a hook, all while pivoting. The hook brings him back in his stance, it sets up the next punch; it exploits quick and brief openings and of course, it's the king of the counters.

His left uppercut was at times used as a counter to the big right hands LaMotta pitched. It made an appearance in the ninth, as a quick counter to Jake bobbing to his right as he stepped in.

The Rare Rear Hook to the Body:

He brought the rear hook to the body on display at the beginning of the third when Jake pulled him into a clinch. He let odd several of them in a row, before switching to the uppercut. After he broke away from the Clinch, he began to set his feet more after the jab and fling those wide arcing right hooks to the body in from outside.

The rear hook to the body has the potential to be a bridge to the inside, but like many body punches, it can also be a barrier to the inside for the opponent. You can shorten the hook as you step in, slotting yourself into range where all punches can land; or it can be widened and long, catching an opponent under the jab as they step in. It punishes the pivot, the jab and attempts to cut the ring. In Jake's case, he was forced to stomach these shots for all three.

As Robinson circled, Jake often found himself pivoting on his lead foot to keep up; which led to him turning himself onto the rear hook to the body. Ray would fire that hook underneath his jab, sliding it in as Jake barrelled forward. When LaMotta cut the ring; he has to step out with his right foot then his left follows. During this second step, Ray's rear hook splatters into LaMotta's ribs.

And then this Rear Hook to the Body would set up two other shots for Robinson which he brought into the fold later on in the fight. The Right Uppercut and the Straight Right. The hook brings the guard down which sets up a straight right over the top of LaMotta's left. A hard body shot will bring a man's head forward and down; which let Robi smash in the uppercut.

McGrain · Aug 2, 2026

META5 said: ↑

Macca's post dismantles the myth that Robbi was just relying on natural athletic gifts, revealing the deep, high-IQ spatial experiments he was actually running inside the ring.
Click to expand...

Very good post, but is that a myth? Arcel named him one of the greatest generals ever. Eddie Futch said similar things, not quite as direct as Arcel's "mental energy" quote, and of all people Glenn McCrory would not stfu about how clever Robinson was in the wring, how closely he controlled the action. But anyway there are loads of guys who feel that way - has this athlete theory passed me by a bit?

In my time watching boxing i've tried to box ring generalship down to two boxes, controlling distance and controlling workrate, with a stack of methods made up just to make these allowable, so I never really counted feinting as a method of ring generalship outside of its controlling how people moved - Robinson is the single greatest challenge to that perspective on film.

Vicente Saldivar got close to him IMO and then mid-late career Roman Gonzalez got close to him.

McGrain · Aug 2, 2026

George Crowcroft said: ↑

I watched LaMotta vs Robi last night for the first time in a couple years and wrote up a couple of the things I found most interesting.

Pairing the Jab/Hook:

Robinson throws his jab with a lot of flicking or snapping at elbow, and he keeps those elbows out and flared. For most jabs, he simply flicks his arm forward and touches them; for the harder jabs, he puts the oomph into the punch by snapping at the elbow. He likes to circle to his left when he's working the jab; he can do it while moving or while his foot is anchored. The jab obviously plays a role throughout the bout, but it's the main instrument in the first few rounds.

LaMotta was attempting to counter jab Robinson; especially after he missed. As the fight progressed, Robinson began using these misses to throw counter-crosses over Jake's counter jabs.

Like his regular jab, he can throw the body jab while circling; which takes much more coordination and balance as you're level changing in the opposite direction which you're circling. These body jabs come harder than the average jab to the head it seems; as a good stiff body jab is sure to keep some distance; or at least put a little lump on their chest or belly.

One of the many things about Robinson which is fascinating, is his feints with his lead hand. He'll throw half a jab, he'll twitch at the elbow or shoulder; he'll drop down for a body jab and not throw it.

With the jabs which fall short and miss; the opponent learns to have less respect for the jab. The feints reinforce that belief; each feint convinces an opponent that a movement isn't necessarily a jab and they need to wait a little longer on each shot. It's a very well told lie. And those lies hide his left hook.

The left hook was a show stopper in this one. Sometimes Jake would wade in and Robi would just whip his hand across, catching him with the left hook. He'd flick his arm out then back in for a hook; he'd drop his weight down for a body jab then spring back up with a leaping hook. It wasn't uncommon to see Ray jab then slip then come back with a hook, all while pivoting. The hook brings him back in his stance, it sets up the next punch; it exploits quick and brief openings and of course, it's the king of the counters.

His left uppercut was at times used as a counter to the big right hands LaMotta pitched. It made an appearance in the ninth, as a quick counter to Jake bobbing to his right as he stepped in.

The Rare Rear Hook to the Body:

He brought the rear hook to the body on display at the beginning of the third when Jake pulled him into a clinch. He let odd several of them in a row, before switching to the uppercut. After he broke away from the Clinch, he began to set his feet more after the jab and fling those wide arcing right hooks to the body in from outside.

The rear hook to the body has the potential to be a bridge to the inside, but like many body punches, it can also be a barrier to the inside for the opponent. You can shorten the hook as you step in, slotting yourself into range where all punches can land; or it can be widened and long, catching an opponent under the jab as they step in. It punishes the pivot, the jab and attempts to cut the ring. In Jake's case, he was forced to stomach these shots for all three.

As Robinson circled, Jake often found himself pivoting on his lead foot to keep up; which led to him turning himself onto the rear hook to the body. Ray would fire that hook underneath his jab, sliding it in as Jake barrelled forward. When LaMotta cut the ring; he has to step out with his right foot then his left follows. During this second step, Ray's rear hook splatters into LaMotta's ribs.

And then this Rear Hook to the Body would set up two other shots for Robinson which he brought into the fold later on in the fight. The Right Uppercut and the Straight Right. The hook brings the guard down which sets up a straight right over the top of LaMotta's left. A hard body shot will bring a man's head forward and down; which let Robi smash in the uppercut.
Click to expand...

Yes, so very good isn't it, good read. Next time you watch it do it entirely from LaMotta's perspective if you haven't, you'll have this much fun at least again. I've seen it maybe 100 times, and really sat with it maybe 10 times and i'm still learning and thinking new things because of it. I'm not exaggerating in that my boxing fandom is at least 20% made up of hoping to see something like this again.

META5 · Aug 2, 2026

McGrain said: ↑

Very good post, but is that a myth? Arcel named him one of the greatest generals ever. Eddie Futch said similar things, not quite as direct as Arcel's "mental energy" quote, and of all people Glenn McCrory would not stfu about how clever Robinson was in the wring, how closely he controlled the action. But anyway there are loads of guys who feel that way - has this athlete theory passed me by a bit?

In my time watching boxing i've tried to box ring generalship down to two boxes, controlling distance and controlling workrate, with a stack of methods made up just to make these allowable, so I never really counted feinting as a method of ring generalship outside of its controlling how people moved - Robinson is the single greatest challenge to that perspective on film.

Vicente Saldivar got close to him IMO and then mid-late career Roman Gonzalez got close to him.
Click to expand...

I think it's becoming a bit of a myth, in a similar fashion to Ali and RJJ were all reflexes, no fundamentals or that Evan Fields was merely a headbutt specialist or Liston wasn't a fantastically skilled boxer.

The issue is that's it's us older guys that are more likely to listen to a D'Amato, Futch, an Arcel, a Blackburn - some fans won't even listen to Duva, Manny Steward or a Benton. There's people that I know that dismiss Atlas cos of his Tyson blindspot and how he looks - it's just become a new generation of fickle fandom who like shiny new toys.

Put it like this, I've recently watched Robbi Vs Docusen over and over again and whilst appreciating that an older MW Robbi was much more content with relying on his chin and standing in the pocket and outmanning his opponent, it was a stark reminder that Robbi was capable of boxing almost Pep-like if he wanted to, but when God gives you that God-given hand-eye coordination and power combination, you don't need to box like a Pep who gets murdered if he stands toe to toe with Saddler. Technically, you're the Saddler, power wise - don't need to box like Pep when you can knock a man out either hand.

I think I probably listen a bit too much to the younger or more general fan who look at the greats and dismiss them cos they don't have zero's on their loss stats or they get judged by how they ended up rather than how they started ala SRR, RJJ, Ali, Louis, SRL, Charles etc.

You're right though, Robbi got his kudos from those that saw him in and around his best - I just happen to think he's undersold nowadays in terms of how good he really was as an artist as opposed to a knock out specialist in the ring.

Ioakeim Tzortzakis · Aug 23, 2026 at 8:37 PM

McGrain said: ↑

Well i'm a LaMotta-Robinson VI fanatic and in that fight Robinson, IMO, was coming up short with enough frequency to trick LaMotta into operating as though there was safety, not strategically, but tactically, I mean in seven second bursts, in corners of rounds, I won't go into detail here but I will say that watching that fight fills me with sorrow sometimes. Robinson worshipped Louis, wept at seeing him defeated, and this, for me, was the greatest gift ever exchanged between two fighters: Louis made Robinson see that offence was not enough, that you had to convince your opponent, that despite being a mobile rampart, it was sometimes safe to attack you. LaMotta, the most hopeful fighter ever to have boxed, a bastion of optimism within the ring, repeatedly, had his hope rekindled by the greatest offence machine to have lived. I went through a fifteen year period of obsessively watching the lions of the Serengeti (and to its east) duke it out over generations once the internet got up and running for real, and i saw more than a few die, and what struck me about them was that they never stop looking at the horizon until they're gone. LaMotta was like that in that fight. He never allowed himself to give up until his nervous system considered him slaughtered.

I might do this properly one day, but for now, and insisting upon none of this in discussion with anyone else:

This content is protected

Robinson does two things with his jab in the opening rounds. He either doesn't fully extend it (see above) or he lands it lightly, without following through. There are many reasons why this is a good idea, for example, have you found your own range yet before over-committing against an opponent that's already coming up and under? But another reason, and it's lost to the world, is to fault your opponent's range. How many more inches do you think are on this jab than Robinson gives here? 4-6? A few, that's for sure, elbow crooked, punch is coming out to Robinson's right rather than through the target, it's an invitation to miscalibration. Remember, this is against an opponent Robinson knows cannot knock him out. Meanwhile, LaMotta knows his range, but of every single aspect of fighting between familiar opponents, whether it's men who have sparred or fought, calibration of the distance is the most untrustworthy and messy. It's so difficult, full of sound and fury, and even months ago is so long ago. Robinson is lying to LaMotta here about the distance, and he keeps it up for many rounds.

This content is protected
T
This is a flat out missed punch and the key thing to remember is: I can't prove that Robinson "missed" (and quite often these are cuffing or scoring or glancing blows anyway) on purpose, he could just be missing and then taking advantage but that's not my opinion. This, specifically, is where Robinson wants LaMotta to think he is safe. Up and under, coming in from low, obtaining a stoop from Robinson which makes it hard for him to get onto the back foot - note the full weight of Robinson through the toes - to open up two further punches. 1) the big "solver" which is the right hand to the body. You can see, already, that LaMotta is ready to sell his body to Robinson in order to facilitate his own offence. Given that this punch was the total solution for Robinson to LaMotta's work inside the importance of achieving this cannot be overstated. The most important punch in LaMotta-Robinson VI is this right hand to the body and Robinson steers LaMotta from the first round into these channels to open it up. I can't be sure of course how much success or not Robinson had with this punch in earlier fights (it gets mentioned in reporting for one of the other fights) but it's definitely thee punch in this one.

This content is protected

This is another example from a little later, and one thing to note is what a perfect punching position Robinson has adopted, he's got LaMotta leaning away, with no offence on the table, in what for a very tall fighter is basically the upper midriff on the left hand side, the literal easiest portion of an opponent for the orthodox fighter to hit and LaMotta has put his head there and Robinson doesn't hit it. He wants LaMotta up that pipe for, in the first instance, the right hand to the body, not a normal one though, a lashing one round the corner.

I was grabbing some pictures for the next little section but it's so instructive I made a gif instead. Probably won't publish but:

It's two thirds of the way there because you see Robinson NOT throw the jab against a wide open target, avoid the punch that LaMotta wants to throw to get inside, throw the "light" version of his dangerous jab but get caught on his heels and allows LaMotta to land the left hook. If only he'd landed his own punch! It would have been perfect, but there is no shortage of Robinson landing a gentle jab or a non-jab and opening up Robinson for the bodyshot or even an uppercut in the mid-late stages of that fight. He spent the whole fight setting him up for the fight to be contested exactly where Robinson wanted it to be contested on the outside even when on the inside. The longest punches Robinson threw in that fight were when they were head to head.

This content is protected

Missed or nothing jab in the ninth.

This content is protected

Less than a second later he's brought LaMotta up the channel that the weak jab makes seem safe and guts him like a fish to the body. Awww it's so good, so amazing good, this is what Arcel meant by "mental energy" I think, the never ending quest for the manner by which to deploy his athletic gifts and the specific reason why I sit at home laughing at people on here who want to say Leonard was better. Leonard didn't have a third, a quarter of the rounds you need to find this type of perfect solution to a problem your world-class opponent doesn't even know he has given you. Robinson's monstrous genius.
Click to expand...

I want to brings this back to life again, coz I had a bit of an epiphany when watching Teo vs Rolly and Yoenli vs Veron in yesterday's card. Back to back fights that couldn't be any more different from each other.

Rolly performed perhaps the worst choke job ever with how disgustingly inactive and negative he was, and Yoenli was throwing leather the entire fight, but had a tough opponent that was there to win who fought back and lasted the distance. The two fights were total opposite extremes of each other, basically.

I was putting myself in the shoes of Veron and Teo in both bouts, in terms of how I'd deal with Yoenlli and Rolly. Being around Yoenli's weight myself, I was kinda scared shitless of him. He's tall and long for the weight class, an aggressive and explosive puncher who wants to knock you out, and has very fast hands.

I haven't boxed competitively (yet), but I've sparred enough decent amateurs to know what type of whooping I'd receive if I just let this man do what he wants. I really, really, don't want this man throwing leather at me. Coz I'm not sure I can take it the way Veron is taking it. I've got to take away his punches, especially his straight shots. With Rolly it was the opposite. Rolly wouldn't throw anything even if you had the officials strap Teo with the belt in the break between rounds. And Teo just can't lead to save his life, he works best as a counter puncher. And I was so frustrated that this time I was thinking the opposite. I want this man to start throwing punches at me.

And that made me come up with a theory about ring generalship and strategy. Everything contained in it, be it geography of the ring, distance, feints, baits, controlling work-rate or tempo etc all depends on a fighter picking 1 of 2 choices. "Do I want to take away my opponent's punches, or do I want to draw them out ?". I think it's a very real possibility everything about ring generalship stems from the answer to this question. You answer it and work from there afterwards. I think this may even be the root behind the whole styles make fights thing. Obviously, I doubt any fighter goes an entire fight thinking he doesn't want to draw a lead or take away someone's right overhand or left hook, he's certainly gonna want to mix it up. But you get the point.

I really want your take on this one. And if you agree, well, obviously Robinson vs LaMotta is a great specimen of a fight for study given that it's all about it. Robinson wants LaMotta to keep coming forward, and I very much doubt Jake wants Robinson to do the same. I watched the first 5 rounds and it's an interesting strategic evolution from Robinson's part. Round 1 is all jabs, he threw a single right hand, one singular left hook and then a triple hook. For the greatest combination puncher of all time to throw a mere 5 non jabs in a full round has gotta mean something. He introduces the right body hook in round 2 but only throws it twice Iirc. It's in rounds 3 and 4 that he goes kinda ham with it and other punches in his arsenal. In round 5 Robinson is mostly sticking to his jabbing routine, but the few times he does throw in combinations, it catches LaMotta off guard and you can even see him mentally going "oh ****" and approaching Robinson with more caution and hesitancy. He even takes a step back at one of his feints. It's late so I'll watch the rest tomorrow, but it's interesting to see LaMotta clearly doubting himself so relatively early. Curious to see how Robinson builds up on that cautiousness.

El'Ice · Aug 23, 2026 at 8:39 PM

McGrain said: ↑

Well i'm a LaMotta-Robinson VI fanatic and in that fight Robinson, IMO, was coming up short with enough frequency to trick LaMotta into operating as though there was safety, not strategically, but tactically, I mean in seven second bursts, in corners of rounds, I won't go into detail here but I will say that watching that fight fills me with sorrow sometimes. Robinson worshipped Louis, wept at seeing him defeated, and this, for me, was the greatest gift ever exchanged between two fighters: Louis made Robinson see that offence was not enough, that you had to convince your opponent, that despite being a mobile rampart, it was sometimes safe to attack you. LaMotta, the most hopeful fighter ever to have boxed, a bastion of optimism within the ring, repeatedly, had his hope rekindled by the greatest offence machine to have lived. I went through a fifteen year period of obsessively watching the lions of the Serengeti (and to its east) duke it out over generations once the internet got up and running for real, and i saw more than a few die, and what struck me about them was that they never stop looking at the horizon until they're gone. LaMotta was like that in that fight. He never allowed himself to give up until his nervous system considered him slaughtered.

I might do this properly one day, but for now, and insisting upon none of this in discussion with anyone else:

This content is protected

Robinson does two things with his jab in the opening rounds. He either doesn't fully extend it (see above) or he lands it lightly, without following through. There are many reasons why this is a good idea, for example, have you found your own range yet before over-committing against an opponent that's already coming up and under? But another reason, and it's lost to the world, is to fault your opponent's range. How many more inches do you think are on this jab than Robinson gives here? 4-6? A few, that's for sure, elbow crooked, punch is coming out to Robinson's right rather than through the target, it's an invitation to miscalibration. Remember, this is against an opponent Robinson knows cannot knock him out. Meanwhile, LaMotta knows his range, but of every single aspect of fighting between familiar opponents, whether it's men who have sparred or fought, calibration of the distance is the most untrustworthy and messy. It's so difficult, full of sound and fury, and even months ago is so long ago. Robinson is lying to LaMotta here about the distance, and he keeps it up for many rounds.

This content is protected
T
This is a flat out missed punch and the key thing to remember is: I can't prove that Robinson "missed" (and quite often these are cuffing or scoring or glancing blows anyway) on purpose, he could just be missing and then taking advantage but that's not my opinion. This, specifically, is where Robinson wants LaMotta to think he is safe. Up and under, coming in from low, obtaining a stoop from Robinson which makes it hard for him to get onto the back foot - note the full weight of Robinson through the toes - to open up two further punches. 1) the big "solver" which is the right hand to the body. You can see, already, that LaMotta is ready to sell his body to Robinson in order to facilitate his own offence. Given that this punch was the total solution for Robinson to LaMotta's work inside the importance of achieving this cannot be overstated. The most important punch in LaMotta-Robinson VI is this right hand to the body and Robinson steers LaMotta from the first round into these channels to open it up. I can't be sure of course how much success or not Robinson had with this punch in earlier fights (it gets mentioned in reporting for one of the other fights) but it's definitely thee punch in this one.

This content is protected

This is another example from a little later, and one thing to note is what a perfect punching position Robinson has adopted, he's got LaMotta leaning away, with no offence on the table, in what for a very tall fighter is basically the upper midriff on the left hand side, the literal easiest portion of an opponent for the orthodox fighter to hit and LaMotta has put his head there and Robinson doesn't hit it. He wants LaMotta up that pipe for, in the first instance, the right hand to the body, not a normal one though, a lashing one round the corner.

I was grabbing some pictures for the next little section but it's so instructive I made a gif instead. Probably won't publish but:

It's two thirds of the way there because you see Robinson NOT throw the jab against a wide open target, avoid the punch that LaMotta wants to throw to get inside, throw the "light" version of his dangerous jab but get caught on his heels and allows LaMotta to land the left hook. If only he'd landed his own punch! It would have been perfect, but there is no shortage of Robinson landing a gentle jab or a non-jab and opening up Robinson for the bodyshot or even an uppercut in the mid-late stages of that fight. He spent the whole fight setting him up for the fight to be contested exactly where Robinson wanted it to be contested on the outside even when on the inside. The longest punches Robinson threw in that fight were when they were head to head.

This content is protected

Missed or nothing jab in the ninth.

This content is protected

Less than a second later he's brought LaMotta up the channel that the weak jab makes seem safe and guts him like a fish to the body. Awww it's so good, so amazing good, this is what Arcel meant by "mental energy" I think, the never ending quest for the manner by which to deploy his athletic gifts and the specific reason why I sit at home laughing at people on here who want to say Leonard was better. Leonard didn't have a third, a quarter of the rounds you need to find this type of perfect solution to a problem your world-class opponent doesn't even know he has given you. Robinson's monstrous genius.
Click to expand...

I know some folks that will read this AND STILL swear on their mother that Robinson wouldn't be able to compete today

El'Ice · Aug 23, 2026 at 9:30 PM

Roy Jones Jr in his fight with Tony Thornton essentially conditioned him into one of his prettiest knockdowns in whis whole career, I've stolen the COMPLETE SEQUENCE and always use it at one point in my sparrings and these guys ALWAYS fall for it.

I'm sure most people will know this one, but I'll still describe it because it holds a special place in my heart, and i'll be doing so in the most childish way possible, because that's how Mr Hook. made me feel when i watched this scene for the first time.

This content is protected

After carefully slipping one of Tony's jabs, Roy circles around the ring as Tony patiently approaches him. When Roy notices he's being driven towards a corner, he throws a quick 1-1b whilst circling to his left to get himself out of danger.

As he circles, Roy notices something peculiar in Thornton's defense, a crack in the shell, a path to victory.

The slowness of Thornton would be his downfall.

Due to Roy's speed, I assume Tony utilizes a high guard to deal with the first jab to the head. But instead of simply staying in that position when the jab goes to the body, he leans slightly to his right and brings his hands down.

I'm sure most of you know where this is going.

The Fastest Ever certainly did.

This content is protected

Something clicks inside Captain Hook's head as he throws the same combination for the second time.

This time, however, Tony doesn't go into a high guard. He uses his rear hand to parry both of Roy's jabs, but the same issue still persists: his rear hand takes a moment to return to its usual position.

This content is protected

Roy completes the trilogy.

Same combination again.

Tony barely slips the first jab and parries the body jab with his rear hand, once again leaving it out of position instead of bringing it straight back to where he needs it to defend... the hook

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

After lingering around for a few moments, Roy gets into position.

He visualized the plan, he has prepared physically, spiritually and mentally for what he will be going to do

He knows exactly how it will be turning out

Roy has
This content is protected

This content is protected

Roy unleashes a lightning-fast jab to Tony's face.

Tony slips it.

But before doing so, Thornton has already seen Roy crouch down after the first jab, expecting the body jab that Roy has shown him multiple times already. His rear hand comes down in anticipation.

He doesn't realize the mistake he's made.

This content is protected

Roy uses the momentum of that crouch and LEAPS forward, throwing a sweeping lead hook directly into Tony's cheek.

It connects beautifully.

Thornton is completely caught off balance and crashes to the canvas.

This content is protected

And as he falls...

This content is protected

The bell rings.

Roy turns his back on the fallen corpse, as he is redirected to his corner

meanwhile we get a close look on the downed Tony, based on the angles of the ring and the direction in which he went, we can only assume he is looking at the turned back of the man who did this to him

As he goes up, the look of his face:

perplexed, astounished, surprised,
he doesn't know what happened,
he doesn't know what hit him

He was simply
This content is protected

BRAVO JONES, BRAVISSIMO!!!!!

This content is protected

Log in or Sign up

Favourite Technique Wells?

George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

JohnThomas1 VIP Member

Ioakeim Tzortzakis "The David Haye of Loma's Gay" -Edgar Allan Poe Full Member

McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

Ioakeim Tzortzakis "The David Haye of Loma's Gay" -Edgar Allan Poe Full Member

META5 Well-Known Member Full Member

George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

META5 Well-Known Member Full Member

Ioakeim Tzortzakis "The David Haye of Loma's Gay" -Edgar Allan Poe Full Member

El'Ice An old pal. Full Member

El'Ice An old pal. Full Member

Log in or Sign up

Forums

Favourite Technique Wells?

George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

JohnThomas1 VIP Member

Ioakeim Tzortzakis "The David Haye of Loma's Gay" -Edgar Allan Poe Full Member

McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

Ioakeim Tzortzakis "The David Haye of Loma's Gay" -Edgar Allan Poe Full Member

META5 Well-Known Member Full Member

George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

META5 Well-Known Member Full Member

Ioakeim Tzortzakis "The David Haye of Loma's Gay" -Edgar Allan Poe Full Member

El'Ice An old pal. Full Member

El'Ice An old pal. Full Member