Foreman (Holyfield fight) Vs. Tyson (Ruddock fights)

Close to 50/50 just due to styles. Tyson beats Foreman from the Moorer fight

 

Tyson obliterates him until the ref takes pity on Foreman and stops it. I have absolutely no idea where this notion that Old Foreman being a difficult match for Tyson came from.

The completely washed, incredibly out of shape, short notice, 5'7, flabby 222lbs Qawi Muhammad used George Foreman's head for target practice. Dude could not miss with the overhand right. Was getting into range effortlessly and counter punching effortlessly. Instead of a shot former Light Heavyweight it'd be one of the hardest hitting heavyweights of all time and he would land damn near every power punch he throws.

Likewise, in the Holyfield fight Holy sat on his punches, loaded tf up and let his hands go with no issues hitting George, nearly knocking him out in the 9th Round.

I seriously seriously don't get what people think is going to happen. This myth of not being able to stand toe to toe with Foreman just isn't based on reality.

 

Tyson murders Foreman.

 

Yes Tyson still near you peak certainly beats old Foreman.

But it was not a myth to avoid standing & trading with Foreman.
Qawi used a bob & weave technique, this is different from taking shots continually.
Evander said Foreman hit him the hardest ever & asked him trainer if all of his teeth were knocked out, but Foreman was too slow to follow up on his best round assault, + Foreman would literally jab him out of range with his great power. Other times he gave the pawing "harmless old man" range finder to deceive guys.

And Teddy Atlas was screaming at Moorer not to stand right in front of George within 10 seconds of the KO when Foreman was almost 46 & won the HW title again.
So it was not a myth, just Foreman was sometimes too slow to get guys out of there.
Steroid Morrison constantly moved especially in & out, & did not stand & trade.

 

My bad, I was supposed to say stand toe to toe* not stand and trade. As in stand in the pocket, not eat punches.

Mike Tyson bobbing, weaving and counter punching is literally his whole shtick lol. He's Qawi on steroids.

In my mind there's nothing outside of people erroneously thinking that Mike Tyson is comparable to Joe Frazier, that makes Mike vs Old Foreman at all reasonable. Not until Mike is in the 2000's would this fight be close.

 

Tyson would take the hardest shots from Foreman, and still keep on coming.
George's face starts to resemble the Alex Stewart fight and Tyson's punches seem to be a blur.
Out on his feet, standing proud, the ref saves George from any more damage,in around the 7 th round.

 

Yes aI agree with that timeline!
And sure, stand in the pocket sometimes with old Foreman if you could evade most blows.

Tyson had many skills, not least of which was his movement & counter punching.
But if you mean literally on steroids, as I & many have written on various threads...there is absolutely no evidence he took them.
He may have-if so more likely after prison to regain muscle-but this is true of anyone.

He was bulky & around 200 lbs. without being tall or fat around 13, & on this website it was said he did reps with 250 lbs. the first time he ever bench pressed.
I am from NYC, & someone who knew him young told tales about how many pull ups he could do & the strict L shaped form-while the legend & massive # may have grown in his own mind, point is he was naturally very mesomorphic.

 

No problem at all, buddy.
I just think the amount of shots that Holyfield bounced off of George's head,if that was Tyson in there, then the damage would be too much.
Unless of course George hurts him, which is a distinct possibility.

 

Oh lol no I didn't literally mean on steroids

But he was definitely on PED's, like every single world class athlete on the planet after they were available, especially as HGH wasn't even being tested for until the early 2000's.

The fact that people believe some of the most:

A. Competitive

B. Immoral

People on the planet, that also have;

C. Tens of millions of dollars on the line

D. No way of being caught for some PED's

Aren't using PED's, is ridiculous. It's neither controversial nor is it even cheating really, it just is what it is and has been the case since about the 80's.

 

Sorry man, that is an extreme position, as indefensible as assuming NOBODY ever cheated lol!
Factually of COURSE it is cheating, it has been against the laws of boxing & most nations for half of forever.
That you do not mind it does not mean-as virtually everyone on thhis forum will tell you, it is not cheating.

Also it is unfair to claim that boxers (or sports folks) in general are some of the most immoral people on earth.
Some like in any population are very good, some are very bad, most are in between, it is a bell curve.
But a profound insult & false belief to make everyone in one field to be effectively evil.

That mucho dinero is at stake & that some things will not be detected is a good argument for SOME, maybe many, folks using.
It is not at all rational to assume everyone is due to broad factors that are incentives to use.

Any more than it is logical to cite ethics, the fear of being caught, fear of negative health consequences, damage to reputation, pride & principles of being moral & winning without cheating, belief that they will not work or that will make performance work due to too much muscle...
Then assume nobody ever used, all positives were false, or nobody BUT who was caught ever used.

Both conclusions-one exceedingly naive, your endlessly cynical-make any sense.

Much more rational is assuming an unknown number cheated, & weigh how likely the level was at what percentage.

Oh & so many below HW already need to maintain whatever in-ring weight, & adding muscle-especially beyond what is natural & beneficial to their frame & power...
Would make them LESS competitive.
Whether or not they were better or worse in absolute terms.

And the VAST majority of boxers around the world are not HWs.

When you end up assuming everyone is guilty-defying the facts & saying it is not even cheating, based on a very one sided broad reasons...you are divorced from trying to be fair & accurate, & pushing hyper-cynical assumptions.

Anytime you say "always" to anything-& provide a confident reading like almost everyone without any specific facts & evidence...
You are speaking from ideology or knee jerk assumptions, not rigorous reason & fairness.

 

Extremely Long Reply Incoming, TL;DR; my conclusions are informed by the very clear history of PED use in sports, psychological profiling and inductive reasoning.

"Factually of COURSE it is cheating, it has been against the laws of boxing & most nations for half of forever".

They're the things organisations pretend they care about, and then the things they actually care about. An organization that makes it extremely easy to prepare for drug tests, extremely easy pass drugs tests, has extremely light or non existent punishment for failing drug tests, and takes you out of the testing pool when you fail a drug test thereby making it impossible for you to be tested after you've failed a drug test (a move that's so counter-intuitive athletes and coaches have admitted they'll fail tests strategically so they can do MORE drugs during their short ban before returning to competition) then it's not really against the rules is it. Every single sports organisation on the planet wants their athletes on performance enhancing drugs. They don't want their laborers to perform worse, have shorter careers and make the business less money.

Pride FC is a perfect example of this. Despite the fact that Pride FC had an anti drug policy, the fighters were told explicitly that they wouldn't be tested for PED use. So PED's were against the rules in Pride FC right? Obviously not lol.

"Also it is unfair to claim that boxers (or sports folks) in general are some of the most immoral people on earth. Some like in any population are very good, some are very bad, most are in between, it is a bell curve."

It's not unfair at all, it's a sociological observation. We're not talking about "in general" because world class boxers aren't the general population. They are a distinct social group that's already been selected for certain psychological traits like extreme aggression and a disposition to violence. It's not a coincidence for example that several ATG boxers beat their wives and that boxers are by in large massively over-represented in violent crime statistics.

Furthermore world class athletes or "sports folk" have already been proven to be, again, as a social group, one of the most rule-breakingly hyper-competitive groups of people on the planet. The extremely easy to break rules that most organisations don't actually care about. Michael Jordan is so competitive he cheats in board games against old ladies in his free time but you DON'T think he's competitive enough to cheat at his day job that gave him billions of dollars? Mike Tyson is morally comfortable with ****, he's morally comfortable with getting an unfair advatange by biting someones ear off, but he's not morally comfortable with taking PED's? You realize how close to impossible that is from a profiling perspective?

"Any more than it is logical to cite...belief that they will not work or that will make performance work due to too much muscle."

This demonstrates you don't know much about PED's. PED's =/= steroids, they don't have to increase muscle mass and even the ones that DO increase muscle mass don't increase it beyond what the user wants. Lance Armstrong was on MULTIPLE PED's including HGH and he looked like a stick insect. EPO is one of the most powerful PED's and it massively increases your stamina. Stimulants increase your force production and reaction speed.

"When you end up assuming everyone is guilty-defying the facts & saying it is not even cheating, based on a very one sided broad reasons...you are divorced from trying to be fair & accurate, & pushing hyper-cynical assumptions. Anytime you say "always" to anything-& provide a confident reading like almost everyone without any specific facts & evidence...You are speaking from ideology or knee jerk assumptions, not rigorous reason & fairness."

These assumptions aren't ideological, and the reasoning is rigorous. Fighters on PED's aren't on one they have stacks that they combine to maximize positive effects and minimize side effects. They do this multiple times a year through what's called a cycle. The positive results of these cycles are so extraordinarily powerful that anyone who has ever beaten another world class fighter that is on PED's is EXTREMELY likely themselves on PED's. We're talking athletes going from sub-olympic level to on the podium. This is why it becomes extremely easy to use inductive reasoning to make this case. People think that you have to prove everyone is one PED's one by one but you don't, you just have to prove what is most likely. Deductive reasoning (which i'm not using) starts with premises that leads to a definitely true conclusion. If A = B and B = C, A = C. Inductive reasoning starts with premises that lead to a likely conclusion. A = B 90% of the time, B = C, so A probably = C.

Lets take the Olympics for example. We know that the performance enhancing drugs taken by world class athletes are so powerful (not can be, ARE, so powerful) that they can take you from national level to world level and can improve performances by a large percentage. Sprinters have gone from running 10.2 to a 9.8. We know that the most naturally talented athletes of all time take them. We know that in the 2012 Olympic Finals, every single athlete except for Usain Bolt failed drug tests in their careers, some before, some after this. We know that every single one of Usain Bolt's training partners failed drug tests in their careers. We know that Usain Bolt is one of the largest outliers in all sports history, as there is a Tiger Woods sized gap between him and the rest of his competition with his PB being a 9.58 and the second bests being a 9.69.

Given that an 0.11s difference represents one of the largest outliers in human history, this means that if Usain Bolt WASN'T on PED's, when running his 9.58, that if he were to take them, he would run anywhere from a 9.38 to a 9.08. The chances Usain Bolt being such a massive outlier, that he's over half a second faster than the second fastest person, is so unlikely that it's basically zero. Therefore, we know that there is an extremely high chance that Usain Bolt is on PED's.

Just to quickfire a few facts because this reply is getting so long;
We know some of the most successful Olympic coaches of all time that have produced multiple Gold Medalists have said that they don't train athletes that aren't on PED's because that would be dumb and a waste of time.

We know that creators of PED's have said that sporting organizations don't actually want to catch athletes.

We know that there have been times entire international football squads have tested positive for extremely powerful PED's... and then LOST, making it very likely the people they lost to were using them. We also know Maradona literally said the 1993 Argentinian football team were on stimulants and that there were no drug tests for this.

We know that a lot of the excuses boxers make for failing drug tests via food contamination are physically impossible because the drugs would only show up if they were injected (Like Fury's wild boar nonsense).

We know that not just Lance Armstrong, but over a dozen people that finished behind Lance Armstrong either failed drugs tests or were under suspicion of using PED's.

We know that 10% of active NFL players are prescribed opioids that are on WADA's banned substance list.

We know that HGH is so commonly used by NBA players that the NBA player association wanted the commisioner to take it off the banned substances list.

We know Steve Kerr and Isiah Thomas openly talking about taking PED's whilst in the NBA during a TV segment. We know that these drugs were so powerful that Kerr eventually he couldn't play in the NBA without them and when he stopped taking them he had to retire.

We know that professional sports organizations have massive financial incentives to and very little incentives of any kind against PED's. If their reputation can survive their players being murderers and rapists PED accusations mean nothing.

We know that it wasn't even possible to test for HGH until 2004 meaning that it was impossible to get caught for it during that time.

We know it's very easy to cheat drug tests, so much so that most high profile drug users such as Lance Armstrong and Barry Bonds never even failed a drug test in their careers and were only caught via testimony.

We know that in several sports the PED use begins at the HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL, not even the collegiate level or the professional level.

We know that athletes fit all the psychological traits of the human beings that are most likely use PED's. We know that professional darts, chess and videogame players use PED's.

Every single thing we know about sports and PED's suggest that it's extremely likely that world class athletes use them in extremely high (as in 99% high) numbers.

Finally, no one cares about the reputation of fighters that have taken PED's. Roy Jones Jr, James Toney, Pernell Whittaker, Erik Morales, Canelo Alvarez, Muhammad Ali etc are just a few names that come to mind of fighters with great reputations that are on record as having either failed drug tests or taken PED's.

 

This, Tyson-Holyfield '91 and Bowe-Lewis are the 3 heavyweight bouts I mostly wanted to witness in my lifetime. And I'm not alone.

The legend of George Foreman making a comeback and heading straight towards Mike Tyson was absolutely HUGE, not only for the sport but for an entire generation of people to witness live. A monumental event, a landmark, that would stand the test of time, standing tall and proud and it's impact would be felt around the world, as far as Neptune, maybe even farther, and send Saturn in reverse like Benjamin Button, then put Kronos to sleep once and for all. I mean the ramifications would justify Hannah Palmer's engagement to me.

So while we all reminisce about yee old world wide web and it's infancy, try to grasp the concept and externalize a blessing from L.ucifer O.ur L.ord (LOL) that this event did not unfold because the only scenario I can see happening is Foreman stepping aside to retire once and for all. 1080 seconds will have elapsed

The end.