Was Hagler s loss To Leonard More About Marvin Declining,Or Ray's Tactics?

Sugar Ray hadn't fought for 3 years before facing Hagler. Even if he declined a bit, it should be nullified by Leonard's inactivity.

 

It also has to be said that Hagler fighting orthodox in the first few rounds probably cost him aswell.

So it's not only Leonard's tactics I would say Hagler's tactics let me him down also.

Hagler in some of his big fights didn't always have the right gameplan.

Against Antuofermo in their 1st meeting he let the champion take the play away from him in the later rounds.

Against Duran he fought too tactical and let that fight be closer than what it should've been.

But that's no excuse Hagler chose to fight that way in the early rounds against Leonard and it cost him dearly.

I also agree with @MaccaveliMacc that Leonard was the one coming off a 3 year lay off and fighting at Hagler's best weight. So that certainly evens it out with Hagler being a bit past his prime.

It also has to be said that not long before the Hagler fight, Leonard apparently got knocked out on his feet in sparring against Quincy Taylor. And that sparring session may of in hindsight won Leonard the fight against Hagler.

Because apparently Leonard was going to fight more aggressively vs Hagler and the Taylor sparring session changed Leonard's gameplan.

 

Some fans said Ray was just waiting for Marvin to get holder. Ray said he was getting older too.

 

Leonard had one fight in the last 5 years before facing Hagler.

And he suffered a flash knockdown before stopping Kevin Howard in one of his worst performances.

Boxrec:

Leonard was so disappointed in his performance that he announced his re-retirement at the post-fight press conference. "As of this moment I am retired," he told the assembled press. "There's no sense in fooling myself or anyone else. It's just not there. I just can't go on and humiliate myself. I fought with apprehension. I had fear for my eyes. I had fear for my whole body. But now I am content. I did try."

Hagler was slower and more hittable (see Mugabi fight) but still a formidable fighter.

Apart from Hagler´s past peak, giving away 4 rounds of a 12 rounder was a tactival blunder.

Not going for a 15 rounder was another.

I think Leonard never gets enough credit for this win and I´m more of Hagler and especially Hearns fan.

He beat a dominant champion, 2 divisions above his best weight, only 1 unimpressive win in over 5 years in which he got dropped for the first time against a non-puncher.

Had not looked that brilliant against only other notable southpaw he had faced, Ayub Kalule.

Kalule was a good fighter (beat Sumbu Kalambay in his last win) but not in Hagler´s class.

Though clearly tired in the last rounds still managed to put some very eye catching flurries especially in the last round.

Hagler really has himself to blame by giving away the first four rounds.

 

Didn't you know that Leonard cheated?

Apparently, he was having secret fights behind closed doors - some call them 'sparring matches' but he deffo cheated - didn't let Marv walk through him like he did Tommy.

 

Hagler fought a stupid fight. But moreso Hagler had aged quite a bit, that and the Mugabi fight took a lot out of him.

Richie Sandoval went to see Marvin as his training and asked "What's wrong with Marvin". Sandoval immediately saw Marvin had lost something. Father time stays undefeated.

 

Leonard received 33 warnings from the Referee and never lost a single point ! Had Steele done his job Leonard would not have been able to continue with his tactics and Hagler would have stopped him ! Ray is a very clever man and he got his game plan spot on,with another ref maybe not so fortunate,there is also the fact that Hagler was declining and his fight before Leonard was a brutal affair against Mugabi. Leonard was commentating on this very fight for HBO iirc and even said himself “ I think I can beat Marvin now” The fight only happening after Hagler agreed to everyone of Leonard’s demands. The decision of this fight is just as controversial now as it was immediately after the result was announced ! We surely were spoilt with big fights in the 80s .

 

Marvin falling for Ray's tactics, and then some.

 

I wish people would let go of the 15-round ‘concession’ on Marvin’s part.

He had not fought in a scheduled 15-round bout in 2 1/2 years. He was only champion for 6 years, 7 months. So more than a third of his reign he had been fighting 12-round title bouts.

As far as 8 or 10 ounce gloves — I’ve asked many times if people know which of his middleweight championship fights were fought with each and no one seems to know. It’s harder to tell by eyeballing the gloves on video of his fights than you might think. The standard for title fights at 160 for some years was either 8s or 10s and it would be decided by contract/negotiation.

I don’t think we can consider glove size a handicap for Hagler without knowing glove sizes for his other fights. It may have been the norm for him (much like 12-rounders) at this stage.

As for ring size, there doesn’t seem to be adequate historical record to know if it was 20 or 22 feet. You can find references to both, and there’s not a preponderance either way nor an authoritative source I can find (like something citing the actual contract or state athletic commission records).

Generally speaking, title fights in this era were fough in rings sized anywhere from 18 to 24 feet, with 20 being the norm. And this fight may have actually been fought at the default 20 here since there isn’t a definitive source solidifying that it was 2 feet larger. Yes, 22 might have given Ray a bit more room to operate footwork-wise (if it was indeed 22), but Marvin for the most part did a ****-poor job of cutting off the ring, so you have to put a lot of that on him regardless imo.

Marvin negotiated for more money and got what he wanted. Leonard’s negotiating points were more tactical. He ‘bought’ what his side wanted by ceding monies to Marvin. Fair is fair.

Ray did not insist on Marvin weight-draining down to, say, 155 — he fought Hagler as a pure middle. The match is in no way tainted by the other things because Marvelous wasn’t fighting 15-rounders for years by this time, and both glove and ring size were within accepted parameters of the day. It’s not like they fought in a 45-foot ring with 20-ounce gloves, lol.

My thing is this — people like to paint Ray as an A-side guy who got his own way as if he couldn’t win otherwise. Yet to hand Marvin an excuse over distance + ring and glove size is clearly a concession that Marvin was a Goldilocks who could only win if things were ‘just right.’ If he had to have everything his own way to beat a welter with one fight in 5 years, that’s not the flex some people seem to think it is.

 

And for a brief moment, Shakespeare picked up his quill, sighed and rhetorically stated:

Ye Philistines must've forgotten.

I'ma fan of both but I do think that Ray detractors need to admit that if a guy can have his first fight in the division against a bonafide top 3 MW champion after being retired for so long and he's coming up, then that guy can't be a phony.

I used to be convinced that Marv would destroy Ray in his prime but now, I'm not so convinced. Ray was a brilliant tactician at his best and Marv wasn't walking through his alleged nothing flurries - there's some uncomfortable aspects about Marv's execution in certain fights that could very well see him lose hypotheticals to the likes of a Nunn or a B-Hop. I wouldn't actually favour him in a series against Robbi and I reckon Roy too, yet, in his prime he's one of the most complete and subtly skilled boxer punchers you could hope for. I don't know how I've arrived at these thoughts but I do find it rather uncomfortable.

 

BHop might just rough him up.

Nunn to me is a handful for any middleweight in history. A long southpaw who could more or fight pretty well at close quarters — he might very well upset some guys (Hagler included but far from alone) who were definitely greater than him in having a nightmare bag of tricks in a ‘styles-make-fights’ sport.

That’s not to say Nunn was unbeatable nor that Hagler was lesser, but were you or someone else to posit that Nunn would upset Monzon, Roy Jr, Greb or anyone else in the 160 to 168 range, while I might not agree I absolutely would not dismiss the idea nor argue that you were off your rocker.

 

Marvin’s dumbass tactics in the first part of the fight cost him the (official) decision.

 

While I admire Marvin’s loyalty to the Petronellis, at some point it should have occurred to him bring in another trainer if only for the final week(s) of camp and to game-plan, whether that be a Futch or a Dundee or a Clancy or a Benton.

I think Marvin’s greed played into that as much as his loyalty … not wanting to part with any money. But he reached a point where he could have renegotiated the Petronellis’ cut down so little or none of his purse would be reduced to go to the finisher.

 

Not me as I would actually argue that we saw what Toney did to him and that it's Roy who at his mercurial best could arguably be the best H2H from 160 - 168.

I think Nunn to have elements to his game that mean the Toney KO loss could just be the outlier that wouldn't happen again.

One thing about Marv that's interesting is that despite an impressive physique, he wasn't particularly big and if I recall correctly, Marv came in a few pounds below the limit comfortably on a few occasions. Functionally strong but certainly not as strong as a rehydrated Eubank in my mind.

Here's the thing that's been troubling me - Monzon usually gets criticised for beating smaller fighters coming up when discerning between himself and Hagler, yet Hagler's biggest victory is arguably against a guy whose best weight was 154 lbs. Carlos went out defeating the challenger to his title and Hagler went out winning the money negotiations but ceding his title by being passive. Whilst Marv was undeniably great, does he have the temperament for a match up against a fellow all timer who's faster, equally as skilled or able to change tact and keep Marv guessing?