Which Heavyweight Is Possibly Overrated Because Of Nostalgia?

Good idea. I'll watch both fights again this weekend and get back to you.

 

Of course. Even some posters on this forum do.

 

Looking at your Ali Shavers scorecard, it's not them who are clueless my man xD

 

Aside from Liston himself the only puncher Williams faced pre shooting was Satterfield who stopped him early. And I'm skeptical Satterfields power would translate to later eras given he was a super middleweight by the standards of today.

As far as Liston's power goes yes the heavyweights of that era were smaller but he could have stopped more of the smaller guys he fought like Whitehurst, Machen, etc and he could have stopped more guys renowned for durability.

Bob Cleroux was never stopped for example so stopping him would have been a good statement though his opposition was pretty poor. An early blowout of Chuvalo would also be a good statement.

 

Yeah, but again, Williams was only 20, near 21 and was a late sub. Atop that, notwithstanding his relative weight advantage, Williams was only around 200 lbs for Satts, a far cry from the rock hard 212 lbs to 215 lbs he ultimately grew into.

Just worth considering, smaller guys can present with their own, smaller size related advantages - particularly when they're fixated on running and not actually winning, as Machen was. The Machen fight is actually a plus for Sonny, not a negative.

Liston stopped the obviously durable Wayne Bethea in super quick time. No one did same before or after. Of course, he also put Patterson out twice, for 10 counts in the first round. No one came close to doing that, not even Ingo with his bingo. Despite 7 KDs Ingo could not keep Patto down.

Machen fell prey to Ingo because he took him far too lightly. Machen didn't display anywhere near the same opening rounds aggression against Liston. Liston's already well-earned rep. as a puncher (I think Sonny had also flattened Folley in 3 not long prior) saw a duly wary, not willing to properly engage Machen.

Curiously, with the Ingo-Machen fight having already gone down, Patterson, by his own admission, also took Ingo too lightly. In fact, that miscalculation is probably what allowed Ingo to break through Floyd's otherwise, heavily protective, title reign barriers.

 

Excellent stuff!

 

Okay but what bearing does that have on his success at heavyweight today?

Fighting a 202 pound journeyman doesn't tell us how he does against someone like Itauma or Usyk.

 

(Los Angeles Times) "Antonio Inoki, a comic opera in which Inoki spent the night falling to the floor and kicking the back of Ali’s legs till they were masses of blood clots. Ali, says Pacheco, never recovered from those kicks." After the subsequent Earnie Shavers-Ali fight physical evidence began matching the observable deterioration in Ali. “Dr. Guardino came to me and discussed Ali’s lab work. His face was serious. The urine exam not only revealed blood in the urine, but entire sections of cells from the tubules. These cells filter the blood. They are not replaceable. They scar and impair kidney function. It is a serious finding, indicating impending kidney damage which could lead to grim consequences later in life,” Pacheco writes. (We can imagine the contribution of Zaire and Manila to kidney disease)

 

Ali had a lot of physical problems, but from what we know chronic kidney disease wasn't one of them.

 

Bethea is a good result but he didn't fight many punchers outside Liston. He did fight Williams though without getting dropped so that's a plus.

I'm less sold on Patterson because Patterson is a light heavyweight by today's standards and didn't fight any other punchers aside from Johansson who stopped him and dropped him in multiple fights. Quarry also nearly had him out.

I could easily imagine Zhang, Wilder, Joshua, even Bakole stopping Patterson early. Probably not Usyk though

That's a good point about Machen being cautious. I haven't watched that fight in full so I can't comment. I will try to watch it.

 

But still, again, no one came close to Liston’s back to back results vs Patterson and after those losses Patterson did engage several bigger opponents with very fair and respectable punch power - least not being Oscar Bonavena.

 

The relevance of my post was to illustrate your statement;
"As far as power goes Liston was generally fighting smaller men who would be cruiserweights and light heavyweights by todays standards."
was false ,which is did,conclusively.
You obviously are not a fan of Liston's,and that's fine,but portraying him as a"weight bully ," is simply not the case.