Was Hagler s loss To Leonard More About Marvin Declining,Or Ray's Tactics?

Excellent post.

I believe that Ray did say that Duran’s relative successes against Marv in ‘83 gave or strengthened Leonard’s belief that he could take Hags - though of course Ray didn’t actually fight Marv until some 4 years later.

It has probably (very more than likely) already been done as a fantasy match in some way - but still interesting to ponder ‘83 Duran version of Hagler vs either the Leonard he did fight in ‘87 or the ‘82 version we last knew of before retirement but obviously bulked up to MW.

 

I remember from the commentary that Gil Clancy kept questioning why Hagler wasn’t letting his hands go when he had Leonard against the ropes and saying ‘Marvin’s so slow getting [his punches] off!’

 

Re the number of rounds ‘concession’, the fight was only for the WBC title as the WBA and IBF wouldn’t sanction it. The WBC had switched to 12 round title fights in 1983 following the Mancini-Kim fight and when Hagler fought Hearns with all the straps on the line in 1985, that fight was also scheduled for 12 rounds, largely due to the WBC’s requirement I believe. So I don’t think there was any concession on Hagler’s part or influence from Leonard in winning a concession as others have already pointed out.

 

Neither Leonard or Hagler faced the best version of the other. This isn't Mayweather-Pacquiao where both boxers were clearly past their best, but both Hagler and Leonard were moderately past their best.

 

I recall thinking that myself also. Hagler reached the point of looking so very slow and mechanical during the fight whilst also appearing as if he was giving it all he had just to throw those punches.

 

I think it was Rays tactics to be honest. He pulled Hagler out of his game and made him fight to his advantages through 12 rounds. I had it Leonard 115-113!

 

Yes ,a combination of both,I also think Hagler's corner were much too laid back,they should have been lighting a fire under his ass!

 

He also faced an opponent who was levels quicker than any other he had faced during his reign.

 

Hearns was just as quick as Ray with the hands, significantly punched harder and IMO had underrated footwork.

I think the difference wasn't just speed - it's speed combined with how Ray used it.

There's times where Ray is bouncing punches off Marv's noggin and Marv isn't walking through it. Ray had a way of getting you to notice his speed - to pay attention to it. Hard to explain but some guys make you notice their speed whilst hiding their power, but the guy getting hit knows just how hard he's getting tagged.

I would like to have seen what Tommy could've done versus that version of Marv had he come out differently, kept a healthy hand and didn't opt to slug it out.

 

Sorry, I forgot about Tommy for some reason. Yes, Tommy had single punch handspeed that was comparable to Ray, that's true.

Yes, it would have been very interesting to see how that Hagler had looked had Hearns tried a a more boxing. counter punching approach. As it was Tommey swung away, and when he was done he was still there for Hagler to get his back.

 

That doesn't get enough notice. There were times Ray made Marvin back up.

 

Doesn't suit the narrative of Ray cheated Marv out of the title by fooling the judges and getting everything he wanted. It's like some people are angry with Ray for what Marv couldn't do in the ring on the night.

Marv got a retirement payday and the same number of rounds that he was already used to but Ray cheated him into a disadvantageous negotiation position. Go figure.

 

I think Goody and Pat Petronelli worshipped at Marvin’s alter a bit too much.

They were clearly the ‘employees’ in their relationship with Hagler and acted as such. Only in a handful of fights would Marvin have needed someone to get in his grill and tell him he’s fighting like a ***** — Leonard, Duran, Antuofermo I, Geraldo before he was a champ all come to mind — to ignite that fire, but I don’t recall that ever happening.

Maybe they weren’t constitutionally capable of being in-your-face cornermen like a Lou Duva or a disappointed father type like Angelo Dundee (‘you’re blowing it, son’) but I think they mostly just walked on eggshells as if their continued relationship with Hagler was more than they were willing to risk by giving him the truth of it.

There should be an understood permission that a corner has to do/say whatever to get a fighter to respond, and all evidence points to the Petronellis not having that permission (or not feeling like they did) with Marvin.

 

I agree, I did not say otherwise. But IMO Hagler's wear an tear was slightly more detrimental than Leonard's inactivity.
IMO inactivity allowed his body to recover.

I wasn't talking about that. IMO Hagler made bigger mistake by accepting a bigger ring and gloves.
He was obsessed with getting the larger share of the purse, and that clouded his judgement.

 

I might not know him personally, but I hate his boxing style in general, I don't like out-boxers, I love swarmers and boxers who trade.
And I also don't like his proclivity to search for unfair advantages in order to get a win. He knew Duran would get fat between fights and forced the fight to happen when he knew Duran wasn't at 100%. A real man would have waited and tried to fight the best version of Duran. That's how you prove you are better. And he also did shenanigans vs Hagler.