Caracas Foreman Versus MGM Grand Holyfield*

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by ThatOne, Aug 26, 2026.


Who wins

  1. George

    66.7%
  2. Evander

    33.3%
  1. ThatOne

    ThatOne Boxing Addict Full Member

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    He avenged his loss to Garcia and was a shot fighter when he got knocked out by Shavers and Cooney
     
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  2. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

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    Excuse crap ... he was crushed by Garcia who was truly washed up when he lost the rematch ... he was not washed up when he lost to Shavers .. he was ranked number one and was lined up for a Holmes rematch from their epic 15 round split decision nine months earlier .. know your facts , don't just spew crap ... and for the record , the Cooney match was just six months after he defeated then undefeated Tex Cobb in a very fast paced , impressive performance. The fact is that Norton froze against punchers time and again.
     
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  3. ThatOne

    ThatOne Boxing Addict Full Member

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    36 for Shavers, 38 for Cooney. Boxers aren't like wine. They don't improve with age.
     
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  4. ThatOne

    ThatOne Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Jose Luis Garcia was 27 when Kenny avenged his defeat and stopped him. If Garcia was washed up at 27 what does that make a 36 and 38 year old Kenny? And around that time Kenny looked desultory at best against journeyman Scott LeDoux. Oh, and he didn't look particularly great against Cobb either.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2026
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  5. slash

    slash Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Holyfield beats any Foreman.
     
  6. ikrasevic

    ikrasevic War for Souls Full Member

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    Holyfield toughened up in fights with Bowe. Without those losses, he wouldn't have beaten Tyson... and Caracas Foreman.
     
  7. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    But here's the thing though.

    Would you favour any version of Norton against Shavers ? I think most people would say no.

    Whilst I agree Norton had his last great fight vs Holmes and was starting to erode after that as a fighter.

    But it also has to be said Shavers is simply a bad style match up for Norton whether he is in his prime or not.
     
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  8. ThatOne

    ThatOne Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I don't know who I would favor. Styles favor Earnie. I just reject the notion that he lost his bouts against Garcia, Foreman, Shavers, and Cooney because he was frightened. And the first Garcia fight went 8 rounds. If he was frightened he wouldn't have lasted that long.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2026
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  9. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I agree he wasn't frightened but the issue with Norton is that once he got hurt he was froze and didn't have the survival instincts.
     
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  10. ThatOne

    ThatOne Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You're correctly pointing to a technical and stylistic weakness. Kenny's whole style depended on coming forward. He couldn't fight on the backfoot. Freezing to me suggests he lacks courage. I don't think the ex-Marine was lacking in character.
     
  11. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Nah that's not what I'm saying certain fighters react differently to getting hurt your either born with it or your not.

    It doesn't mean you lack courage it just means its a weakness for Norton he can't help it it's just how his body reacts.

    When I say freeze it doesn't mean that Norton freezes up due to the occasion or that he's scared of his opponent.

    I'm just saying Norton hasn't got the survival instincts and his body doesn't react as well to getting badly hurt as some other fighters.

    That's just the way i see it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2026
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  12. ThatOne

    ThatOne Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You're seeing it right. His clinching game was non-existent. Because of his unusual cross armed defense and spring forward style he was the recipient of clinches and not the initiator. That style is not conducive against sluggers like George, Earnie, and Cooney. You also have to factor in he was on the back nine of his career after the grueling Holmes fight. He didn't look great against LeDoux and Cobb who were fringe contenders at best. If my memory is correct he got beat up pretty badly by LeDoux.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2026
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  13. ThatOne

    ThatOne Boxing Addict Full Member

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    The decline of Ken Norton. At 34, he lost a hotly contested split decision to Larry Holmes when he was really coming on in the fifteenth and final round. That was the last time we saw him as an elite fighter. The Shavers fight was when alarm bells went off. Against Holmes, Kenny could eat right hands and sustain pressure of his own. Against Earnie, the first time Earnie landed seriously, Norton had no recovery phase at all. His margin of error was essentially zero. This is a good time to mention he was 35 years old and had fought a combined fifty-four rounds against consensus heavyweight all time greats Muhammad Ali and Larry Holmes. He then fights a split draw to journeyman/fringe contender Scott Ledoux, where he is beaten up badly, getting dropped twice in the tenth round. Contemporaneous accounts said he was done. He then wins a desultory split decision against Tex Cobb. The end- Cooney obliterates the ghost of Ken Norton. Saying Gerry Cooney beat the real Ken Norton imo is as absurd as saying Kevin McBride and Danny Williams beat the real Mike Tyson. "Old fighters don't paint great canvases. They become part of them."
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2026
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  14. Eddie Ezzard

    Eddie Ezzard Boxing Addict Full Member

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    If, as they say, boxing is 90% mental, Holyfield has a huge advantage here. The MGM Grand version was about as watertight mentally as any heavyweight since Ali.

    George, on the other hand, was all over the place, personally, in Caracas. Tax and marital problems were big distractions. That aside, he had also become unaccustomed to anyone standing up to him. His mental fortitude gets some serious scrutiny when he tries to lay a whooping on Evander and Evander keeps on hitting him back.

    Evander would be prepared for a war. George wouldn't. And at that stage of each guy's career, my money would be on Evander to be the last man standing.
     
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  15. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    Norton was at the end of the line for Shavers and Cooney. Whatever he had left got spent in the war with Holmes.
     
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