People pick Joe over super heavies but not Marciano

Frazier
Chest 43
Neck17
Biceps15
Forearm13
Fist 13
Thigh 26 1/2
Calf 15
Reach 73 1/2

Marciano
Chest 38
Neck16 3/4
Biceps 14
Fist 11 1/2
Thigh 22
Calf 11 1/4
Reach 67
Frazier is naturally the bigger man.
Walcott has nothing to do with this discussion.

 

Your not holding consistent logic it's very flawed logic actually.

Saying 20 pound weight advantage, 6 inch reach advantage.

Whilst being faster, harder hit, better work, less prone to cuts.

Is not a significant advantange is just false and you know it.

No one is saying Frazier would beat loads of elite Super Heavyweights but he would fare better than Marciano.

Fighters like Briedis and Gassiev who have had success at Heavyweight are far closer to Frazier's dimensions and size rather than Marciano.

 

Frazier did not have better defense by every metric. He ate a lot of shots. Was down more in his career.

Marciano never lost a fight over cuts. This argument is brought up routinely and it’s a non factor.

Marciano knocked out every man he met over 200 pounds. At what point is it a non factor (serious question)? 10 fights?15?20? 11-0 11KOs even if only a handful were good fighters it means nothing as most men only meet a handful of “good” fighters anyway.

 

I’ve noticed this, and I believe it’s due to the fact Louis could fight much better going backwards than Marciano, which is crucial as a smaller man against bigger men who can throw devastating combinations.

 

Marciano ranks higher than a lot of those super-heavyweights. Dare I say it, I think the younger posters trying to push this stuff about super-heavyweights are getting confused about what it means to actually be a long reigning heavyweight champion like Marciano was.

 

How many fighters over200lbs thant hemma

How many fighters over 200lbs did Rocky fight that were any good?

 

Three that were ranked and a few that were ranked at some point. Louis being the best. I don’t think “being over 200” means anything. Did Walcott hit not as hard Bob Baker or Nino?

I’ll ask the same question that I did the other poster interested in your opinion. What number is the right number of HWs in your opinion 200 and over that qualifies someone to be able to compare w men 200 plus? Is it 10?20?30? Marciano was 11-0 w 11KOs of men over 200. That’s more than Usyk btw.

 

Frazier is a much better, more dangerous more durable boxer than Marciano. Go down the list and Frazier is better. Go down the list Frazier proved himself more against bigger, better, more dangerous, more durable opponents.

Height wise Frazier isn't much bigger but I don't think people appreciate the difference between a 67 and 72 inch reach so far as winning at HW. It's not the same as the difference between 72 and 77. Those 5 inches might as well be a country mile.

 

I’ll just say that while Frazier may not have necessarily carried the aesthetic appearance of some fighters of similar weight he was an extremely well stripped down 205 lbs. Perfect.

After the FOTC he did jump up as much as 19 lbs over his prime weight at times and I believe he certainly never returned to his prime weight thereafter.

The closest he came was perhaps 208 lbs for the Bugner fight in which he still overcame a very big and viable contender.

 

I’m not looking to dispute you in anyway . But what evidence do we have to suggest that Joe Frazier was more “ durable “ or more “ dangerous “ than Rocky Marciano ? Not saying you’re right or wrong. I just want to hear your reasoning

 

Durable.

Of all the fighters Foreman beat after Peralta Frazier survived the longest except Lyle who lasted two more seconds. Took 44 rounds for Ali to stop him and it's only because Frazier's team threw in the towel a few moments before Ali's would have.

Dangerous.

He was the first to stop Chinvalo, Buster Mathis, Machen, Ellis and Quarry.

 

By saying that Frazier lasted longer than anyone after Foreman’s fight with Peralta, I’m assuming you mean the rematch. Because the first time around when Joe was the raining champ he got stopped in two rounds. And I see a bunch of guys who also went two rounds with George or even a little longer after the Peralta fight. It’s fair to say that Joe DID go five rounds in the rematch but I think that had more to do with the two components of Frazier adjusting his style and Foreman being in a different mindset since the Ali loss. Incidentally, Rocky Marciano was never stopped by anybody despite being in more pro fights than Frazier. Does that guarantee he was more durable ? No. But it also makes me hesitant to say that he wasn’t. Your points about him being the first to stop Chuvalo, Quarry, Mathis and Ellis are valid reasons why he might have been more dangerous. Marciano was the first to stop Roland Lastarza who was one of the best defensive heavies of his time and Rex Layne who was fairly durable himself. He also ended the careers of several men and held the highest KO percentage of any heavyweight champ well into the 21st century.

Still… all good and interesting points. Thanks for the reply

 

Marciano didn't fight any dangerous opponents. Louis had lost his power and at 6'2 he was the tallest opponent Marciano fought at the world level. Marciano fought in a small not dangerous era and didn't fight the biggest and/or most dangerous opponents his era had to offer. Frazier didn't fight Norton, Jimmy Young, Lyle or Shavers but he did fight Foreman, Ali, Bugner, Buster Mathis, Foster and Jeff Davis. He fought large and/or dangerous opponents and against everyone except Foreman put up a minimum of severe resistance.


Walcott had okay power that hit periodically KO and it was the end of his career same with Ezzard Charles. To the extent Charles had power he stopped leaning into it after he killed someone like Max Baer. Long before he fought Marciano. Moore was a 41 year old LHW who wasn't really a puncher either. Otherwise the most dangerous prime opponent Marciano fought was Rex Layne. Marciano's chin was not seriously tested and neither was his power. Not a lot of hard targets. Despite that the results of his power(at the top level) were not overwhelming so much as he wore opponents down. Frazier except all but the best HW's of the best era was a dominant force.

Yeah but Foreman speedran very consistently except Ali and Jimmy Young 2 of the most durable HW's ever. And Lyle who actually did damage. The only reason rope a dope was a viable strategy because Foreman started freaking out thinking he was poisoned because Ali didn't go down right away. Because his power was so automatic it not working meant foul play. Unlike Tyson Foreman didn't need to win that way or he'd start gassing which he proved later on. He was just that automatic.

Peralta had a great chin. He was a LHW who went the distance with Foreman and Lyle 3/4 times in fights he didn't win any of. There is possibly no one at HW in the 70s who could do that. And a LHW did that. That's a special chin.

Peralta was stopped 2 other times in a 110+ fight career. Once against Pastrano because of a cut and the other time against Mina a decade earlier. Mina was much better than anyone Peralta had fought and much better than anyone he would fight for years after that. Peralta was 11-2-3 with 3 wins against winning records. Mina had won 12 in a row since losing a fight for the South American title. Peralta still took a beating for 8 rounds. The most important chin stat is how many times a fighters been knocked out. That's the first thing you look for when seeing if a fighter has a good chin and then you investigate if it means something or not. An unlucky cut or taking a tough fight too early is all it takes to change that number from a rare 1 or 2 that stands out to a 3 that doesn't.