Was Hagler s loss To Leonard More About Marvin Declining,Or Ray's Tactics?

If I may say, it does appear that you’re trying to argue that the opening rounds of Hagler - Leonard were all about what Ray was doing, not about what Hagler wasn’t doing but could’ve done.

First you said Marv never fought someone as quick as Leonard. Not true. Hearns hand speed was obviously on par.

Then you said Marv didn’t have to go looking for Hearns. I agreed but probably should’ve qualified myself further on that.

I added that Marv wasn’t actually looking for Leonard in the opening rounds of their fight.

Your incorrect suggestion that Marv never started notably aggressive allowed me to return to duly qualifying that Hagler did in fact do same vs Hearns.

Notwithstanding Hearns aggressive reciprocation, Hagler initiated the fireworks which set the tone of the fight that unpacked thereafter.

I never said Hagler’s errant tactics during the opening rounds vs Leonard were due to age and slowing down. I clearly framed them as a poor election on Hagler’s part.

So, it doesn’t run that you would anticipate that I would call in age and slowing down as an explanation for Hagler’s overly cautious tactics vs Duran.

Quite simply, Hagler afforded far too much respect toward Roberto, applying less than ideal tactics/strategy.

Since the time of the Duran fight and perhaps in due correction of the err of his ways vs Roberto, Marv had accrued the successful application of a more pro actively aggressive start under his belt when he blew away Hearns.

The Hearns fight would’ve lent heavily to the belief that Marv would start exactly the same against Leonard - especially a virtual 5 year inactive, presumably rusty as hell Ray who didn’t ever hit as hard as Tommy at any rate.

Basically, Marv gave Ray too much rope in those opening 4 rounds, and despite putting more pressure on Ray in the mid to later rounds, the fight more than arguably got away from him due to his overly passive opening rounds.

Also, aside from how the 12 round limit came to pass (of course it wasn’t part of the negotiations) it was still 3 rounds less than Hagler had when dealing with Duran so that’s another reason why Hagler shouldn’t have opened the fight on cruise control.

 

I don't agree at all. I rewatched the first half Leonard-Hagler fight yesterday and Hagler is putting constant pressure on. Yes, when Leonard slows in the 5th that presure of course becomes more telling, but in the first four he can't really catch up with him, He's not boxing him. not waiting for Leonard to make a move. He is the constantly walking forward. pressuring.

I can only repeat that the Hearns fight was different no matter Tommy's handspeed. Tommy planted his feet and swung away. He was there to be found most of the time. Had he actually boxed like Leonard, the comparison would be apt but he didn't.

Bur this only repeating what I've already said so I'll leave it at that.

 

I honestly can’t see what you’re disagreeing with.

By way of obvious premeditation and self initiation (read non-reactive) Hagler started far more quickly and aggressively against Hearns than he did against Leonard. Period.

That was THE clear difference in Hagler’s OWN approach - which is exactly the point/comparison at hand.

Also and again, it was the type of start to a fight that you incorrectly claimed Hagler never launched.

Hagler’s predisposed, far less aggressive start against Leonard was not at all similar.

Your digression into Hearns’ reaction to Hagler’s obviously different start/approach, is simply going well and truly off point.

Nothing more for me to add either.

 

Hagler lost more of what he needed to beat Ray ... it was a brilliant match timing by Leonard and fight strategy ... however prime for prime Hagler would have hurt him ..

 

I can remember a very important quote from Ray before the fight and it made me change my position---well him and an Angie dundee quote.

Do you recall that interview with Ray when he was talking strictly about the Mugabi fight. He said yes Marvin is really good but he is mechanical.

And Hagler was mechanical and that is hardly a trait for an opponent of Sugar Ray Leonard to have.

 

Do you think Hagler was mechanical ? I don't .. to me Hagler , a switch hitting boxer puncher with speed, power and a terrific chin may have been as great a well rounded middleweight that ever lived. Ray was the superstar who could make any fight happen and he pursued the 87 faded Hagler like he avoided the 82 Hagler ..

 

By the time of the Leonard fight Hagler had become a little bit mechanical.
But in his prime no he was not mechanical.

 

it was mostly due to hagler's steep decline, the reason Ray rushed to fight him. This should be obvious. It even says so on the tape. Anyone out there who says otherwise wont admit the truth

 

I especially like the part when someone says "Hagler was just a bit past his prime", "he was still a formidable fighter". That's like saying JFK was just a bit shot

 

Leonard was simply always the better boxer combined with Hagler's silly gameplan in the first 4 rds when he should have come out and really put it on Leonard.

 

He was slower , not mechanical ... he lost more of bis game than Ray did as far as speed of hand and foot and Ray saw this nd capitalized .. still an exceptional accomplishment , no question but it was what it was ..

 

Hagler also had a huge complex issue when it came to Leonard where he was so concerned with "showing" Leonard he could do this or that he literally blew some of the early rounds.

 

forget all that nonsense. the truth is always the easiest explanation which in this case is, he was physically and mentally diminished. Havent you ever wondered why after years of avoidance, Ray suddenly rushed in and had to convince Hagler himself NOT to retire?

 

A combination of both and other things.

Hagler fought a stupid fight
Hagler was depleted and aged
Leonard fought a smart fight in fairness


It’d have been interesting how Hagler would have fought Leonard in his prime, personally I think he would have won but had to pull it out late after fighting a similarly stupid first few rounds

 

Its not really nonsense though, Hagler did throw away several rounds and in the end that probably did cost him the fight.
I bet he thought after that he could have won that last fight if he did everything right, no wonder he carried that chip on his shoulder for the rest of his days