So, could Hrgovic win the Rumble if we swap him in for Ali?

Excellent point highlighting that the Peralta fights are reaching all the way back to Foreman’s very early career. At the stage his performances vs Peralta could be viewed as very good.

I guess that can be also counteracted somewhat by the fact that Foreman’s power later saw many easy KOs within just a few rounds - so, as a byproduct, George wasn’t getting the rounds under his belt to further develop his stamina and pacing.

Certainly, the limited # of rounds per fight that Foreman had fought over several years leading into the Ali fight weren’t ideal prep for any fight that potentially went beyond the 3-4 round mark.

Perhaps it would’ve been better back then for Foreman to have deliberately boxed a few more rounds than he had to in order to better develop and tune in his gas tank.

Certainly, it wasn’t the right time or opponent for George to get some rounds in and experiment against a fighter of the calibre of Jimmy Young.

 

I understand the distinction you're making, but I still don't think the actual evidence supports the premise that Hrgovic was routinely rolling with Itauma's punches and taking the sting off them.

If he was doing that to any significant degree, you'd expect it to be apparent in the footage when he's actually getting hit. But there are numerous occasions where Itauma lands cleanly and Hrgovic's head and upper body are simply being struck squarely. The ESPN commentary during the sixth round is particularly telling: "Itauma lands some clean shots and Hrgovic just can't get out of the way." They weren't describing Hrgovic as successfully riding the punches or taking the sting out of them. He was having trouble getting out of the way.

And you can see the result physically as well. His face, skin and body are reacting to the shots. This isn't a case of Itauma repeatedly grazing him while Hrgovic subtly rolls with everything. He was taking plenty of flush contact.

As for the ninth round, I think the punch statistics are especially damaging to the interpretation you're giving it. Itauma's accuracy doesn't suddenly remain high while Hrgovic supposedly abandons his defense. His connecting percentage falls off a cliff because Moses is completely exhausted and starts throwing punches from increasingly poor positions. The reason Hrgovic isn't getting hit by as many of those punches isn't that he's suddenly demonstrating superior defensive reactions or successfully riding everything. It's that Itauma is so fatigued that he's throwing punches a mile away from the target. Though to be fair, the only reason Hrgovic didn't get hit by those wild swings is because he was too tired to walk into them like he was doing all night.

And there's another problem with the explanation that Hrgovic deliberately stopped caring about defense because he knew Itauma couldn't hurt him. If that's what happened, that's a flaw, not evidence of superior defense. You're essentially giving him credit for deliberately abandoning a fundamental defensive responsibility because he believed his opponent was finished.

That's exactly the sort of thing that can be exploited by an opponent who is feigning vulnerability, has more left than he's letting on, or is simply fighting desperately enough to land one big shot. Joshua-Ruiz is the obvious example as I previously mentioned. Joshua thought he had Ruiz badly hurt, became careless while hunting the finish, and found out the hard way that assuming an opponent is finished isn't the same thing as actually finishing him.

So even granting your interpretation for the sake of argument, I'm not sure why that helps the case for Hrgovic's defensive ability. If he wasn't deliberately taking those shots, then he was simply getting hit cleanly. If he was deliberately taking them because he thought Itauma couldn't hurt him, then he's demonstrating a pretty exploitable defensive lapse.

Either way, I don't see evidence here of the exceptional punch anticipation or defensive nous that was originally being attributed to him.

 

Jfc, I can’t believe I actually agree with you, but here we are. The way Foreman–Young is described here, you’d think it was a shutout. It was a very, very close fight that, without the questionable foul call and resulting point deduction, only has Young winning by a majority decision.

What’s really odd is that the same people who insist Young won decisively are also the ones who swear Foreman–Peralta I was some kind of competitive life-and-death affair, despite it being a much more decisive fight on the cards. The referee, arguably the most useful scorekeeper since he’s closest to the action, gave Foreman all but one round.

 

Thanks Swag, a clear and concise rebuttal. I see your point and my only counter is interpretation. I do agree that becoming dismissive about an oppments power is a dangerous and foolhardy game to play, which is why I added that he may simply have got caught with bigger punches later due to his own fatigue. Hrgovic rarely manages any kind of pace for a full fight, his engine has been suspect in the past.

You are also correct about the commentary yet did you not think that, as ever, the commentary was terribly one sided? I guess they are doing their job and that they are the 'house' commentary for the 'house' fighter, but I can definitely remember some pro pundits making similar points to the one I am making after the fight. I can remember that many of Hrgos crisp counters were not given much lip service, particularly his crunching body work.

Again, interpretation. I do not, and have never claimed, Hrgo is a defensive genius I just felt on the night he was talking the punches in a much more nuanced manner than many seem to think. Others believe he was taking full blooded digs on an imoveable anvil chin all night. And, like yourself, have explained why. This is the intangible side of boxing analyses I guess. On reflection, we can all be right. The 'truth' will lie somewhere in the middle, it usually does!!

What a fascinating and informative discussion. You have given me lots of food for thought. Have a wonderful Sunday. Px

 

The same people here cheering the new flavor of the week with recency bias said Joe Joyce would have beat Foreman, Ali etc.

Smh.

Hrgovic loses teeth in addition to the fight.

 

Prime Joyce would be a huge problem.

 

Lol... "Prime Joyce"

Zhang was thirty-nine and forty when he obliterated a "prime" Joyce twice. The myth of "prime" Joyce you cling so desperately to was destroyed by a fat, out of shape old man with a six round gas tank.

 

Foreman wasn’t a southpaw giant and Joyce was the same age.

It’s as if people erase the Parker fight to protect their own egos.

 

Parker and Foreman fight nothing alike.

It's as if people forgot Joyce was obliterated twice, in his "prime" by an old man to protect their own egos.

 

It’s true that Parker was 20 pounds heavier and significantly more durable than a prime Foreman. There’s also that Dubois guy.

 

Parkers been on the canvas six times, Foreman twice. Foreman even older than Joyce and Zhang took abuse from Holyfield, Morrison, Cooney and never went down.

Joyce was splattered in the rematch and stopped in the first with a broken face.

No amount of your word jujitsu changes the fact that "Prime" Joyce got obliterated twice and a young Foreman would do the same. Unless Joyce learns to headbutt, elbow and low blow like Dubois nothing changes that.

Agree to disagree.

 

Not sure how many prime fighters are pushing forty.

 

I get it and I'll make it clear; It is a poor comparison to try and build this argument on. One is a super heavyweight with an outstanding amateur pedigree and victories over high caliber heavyweights. The other was a good, natural light heavyweight and at best a decent, cagey fighter who maybe cracks the top ten at heavyweight . You think there is value to it as if it is only about standing for ten three minute rounds and not factor the opposition. I disagree.

 

Only thing I disagree with here is there was ample evidence that Moses was exausted & note a danger.
More so than say Ruiz.
Numerous times a fighter wades in when his opponent is weakened, & just there overwhelmingly greater energy & offense completely justifies there quickly dispatching him.

But yet Hgrovic was not defensively brilliant before that.
Itaumi was still landing up until utterly exhausted.

 

I agree with the recency bias.
But most fighters would lose teeth without mouth guards, including Ali.

Hgrovic would have the guard & just almost certainly lose the fight.