Psychological defense mechanisms... Hypejobs and their defenders

This where I take TOTAL exception.

Hrgovic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stiverne >>>>>>>> Charles Martin (i mean really? Martin??)

LEAGUES apart in just about every conceivable way for Charles Martin. That's just ridiculous!

And traditionally, gatekeeper has always been reserved for solid fringe contenders in the top 10-20 - someone who can ask questions of prospects / other contenders and guage their relative level., but are not in title contention themselves, they are stepping stones to proving you deserve a shot.

Hrgo was maybe perceived that way for a while, and he did himself no favours with his tendency to switch off in fights.

If we look at H2H against the current crop of HW, this would be my take:-

• Dubois - I'd have this straight 50/50 maybe edging to Dubois based on his head tendencies and the cuts issue; but the extenuating circumstances to the first encounter is well documented in terms of illness / father / focus etc. If I had to put money on the rematch i'd back a <240 focussed and fit Hrgo.
• Kabayel - this is tricky to guage. Kabayel does work the body well, but he'd need to navigate Filips jab. It's hard to say as Agit hasn't been that active, and looked to have plenty of flaws against Knyba. 50/50
• Wardley - Fabio has a punchers chance, and maybe he could break Filiips chin, but I'd see this as fairly comfortable points win for Hrgo
• Parker - the Parker that tried to power through Wardley gets stopped. Parker that uses his strengths and fights to win on points would be an interesting fight, but not sure Parker can do that anymore.
• Sanchez - not fooled by the Torres KO, easy win for Hrgo, Sanchez can't win on points (too inactive) and he doesn't stop him
• Joshua - Hrgo within 5, Johsua has no punch resistance left, Hrgo walks through him. Not that Hearn would go near that fight.
• Fury - depends on how much Fury has left, I'd probably still make Fury 55/45 favourite on being able to herky jerky and frusrate El Animal and get him to zone out and lose focus.
• Itauma rematch - unless Moses changes things up, it ends sooner than 9.
• Usyk - would still favour Usyk 60-40, but that's not likely and after Rico, who knows?

I'd have Hrgo at least evens with most, and only really would favour Fury & Usyk right now as outright favourites.

That's hardly gatekeepr, and more legit contender material no?

And for full disclosure, my view on Hrgo has changed since the Itauma fight, but that is purely becuase he showed focus, discipline, mental fortitude and lazer-focus at all times, things I have pulled him up for in the past; he really seems to have buckled down to work under Sanchez at Big Bear. Maybe that's just because it was an unproven young pup, but I think time will show that's not that at all - he looked much better against Dave Allen before as well and the progression can be seen.

 

Any excuse....

"Anthony Joshua"

 

Jesus,, Charles Martin

Stop it

 

He has one competitive loss to Daniel Dubois. The Moses fight should not have been needed to convince people he's not a gatekeeper.

 

I didn't say I agreed with him being a gatekeeper, only that it's a fair enough view to have.

His best win is a controversial win against Zhang (one I felt he should have lost as well tbh). His record other than that is rather... dry tbh. Itauma is probably one of his best performances, one that I expect to age well, but as of today is a bit of an unknown.

FTR I think he beats Dubios in a rematch.

 

Hype is a big part of the entire game in boxing

Always has been

Without Hype, boxing literally ceases to exist

 

I had to hit the like button by your second sentence.

 

A thread about hype jobs and the psychological defense mechanisms of their fanboys is the most relevant thing to Anthony Joshua since Pringles tried to sponsor him.

 

That's all fair enough - we can just agree to disagree on our interps - would be dull if everyone just agreed to everything!

One last thing I will throw out on 'gatekeeper' term - I just think that objectively it does not apply - at least for now:-

Fwank and Queensberry obviously determined that Hrgo was exactly a gatekeeper; he would test Moses and folks would have their answers. IMO Hrgo - and I said this before the fight to folks saying he was happy to get his paycheck - would have HATED being thrust into the gatekeeper role, and he was 'I'm gonna show these mooks I'M NO GATEKEEPER, I'm a champ!"

And he showed them - regardless of Itauma's stamina, or flaws in his offense, any GATEKEEPER would have folded and been stopped by the midrounds IMO, or at the very least they would not have been increasing their pressure and workrate like Hrgo did. A GATEKEEPER would have accepted they weren't on Itauma's level, mentally capitulated and continued to just take punishment till it was stopped as opposed to turning the tide.

To me that is more than enough evidence that Hrgo is no gatekeeper right now in his career; folks that should have known better made that misjudgment, Hrgo tore the script up and threw all their plans into disarray. Genuine gatekeepers don't do that, it's not in the job description!

What's going to be interesting to me, is whether Hrgo's desire to prove he is the best, focus and all the stuff he showed in last 2 fights remains, or does he revert to type and slack off / zone out etc without the same chip on his shoulder. I genuinely think that now he has ascended the summit, he will be even more focussed on proving that he belongs there and we still have the best of him to come

 

Hardly anyone is hyping or overrating Hrgovic, people are giving him his credit after having underrated him. He's an olympic medalist and now a titlist. Not a great one but not the worst one either. He's not even the weakest titlist around right now, he easily beats Gassiev to unify the belts

And noone ever put him around "gatekeeper" level unless they're extremely pretentious and get a feeling of superiority by disrespecting boxers.

 

Ok, I appreciate that - but how many other fighters in the list I made above would have capitulated against Itauma in that fight before round 9? They can't ALL be gatekeepers...

I think that's why this is such an interesting fight and result in terms of analysis impact - Itauma's flaws were on display, BUT his offensive eye-test was such that many would still favour him to destroy much of the pack.

 

"Hrgovic = Stiverne and Martin"

Yeah, OP is an idiot.

"Put Hrgovic in with Chisora's resume - does he win any meaningful fight that Chisora didn't? No."

This assertion is also comical. Hrgovic beats Helenius, Parker (who he beat in the amateurs and passed on a chance to fight Hrgo in an IBF final eliminator), Whyte and Pulev, and he has a great chance against a green Fury, 40+ Vitali, Haye (cut Haye, didn't get hurt or dropped, likely beat Haye in sparring, at 21), Kabayel (who also passed up a chance to fight Hrgovic) and shot Wilder. The only Chisora fights I don't see Hrgovic with at least a big chance are Fury 2, Fury 3 and Usyk.

Hrgovic was the most avoided man in the division for years, the most ducked since Ortiz. No one would fight him: not Kabayel, Hunter, Bakole, Ruiz, Parker. He overcome 7/1 odds against A-side Itauma in London, and took Zhang's 0 when he was himself massively underrated. Hrgo is a top contender/champion level fighter.