Is Vitali really an H2H monster?

But Lewis could take sustained punishment it's big right hands out of nowhere where he got complacent that was his undoing.

Vitali was also starting to take punishment which he wasn't used to taking.

The difference is with Vitali's other late stoppages is that he was in complete control of those fights.

Where as Lewis was starting to come on and land big power punches of his own. With the hardest punch of the fight being an uppercut from Lewis in the 6th round.

Vitali wasn't used going back and forth in a very competitive fight and then scoring a late stoppage that's unknown territory for Vitali.

I agree no one knows for sure what would've happened without the cut.

But again Vitali did have a good opportunity for a passing of the torch fight against an older Lewis. Who was at a career heigh weight and Vitali couldn't deliver.

Some may say Vitali was unlucky or etc.

But again Vitali could've proved more in his career by mixing it with more upper echelon Heavyweights which he didn't do.

So Vitali is a bit more of a what if and more known for his historical losses and that's the problem when rating him.

No one truly knows how good Vitali was because IMO he didn't prove it enough against better opposition.

 

I agree no one knows for sure what would've happened without the cut.
But again Vitali did have a good opportunity for a passing of the torch fight against an older Lewis. Who was at a career heigh weight and Vitali couldn't deliver.

We mainly differ in that 2 losses-combined with his great amateur & kick boxing record-are not excessive-Lewis lost in more shocking ways as did Wlad 3X.
But yes, Viltali is not as proven.
For me how great he was against very good fighters AND his attributes-mostly size, strength, awkardness, granite chin & certainly work rate combine to credit him more than you re: his likely very high H2H status.

Lastly, yes Vitali was unlucky, & granted Lewis was coming on.
But he seemed even more gassed.
AND I cannot discredit or be too skeptical for a man not scoring a late stoppage-similar to a great fighter who does not get off the canvas to win because he rarely tastes it-because he almost always finished guys much earlier.

And the 2 losses are just statistical anomolies, & I see no reason Vitali might well have beat Lewis.
His heart (in this fight too when his face almost escaped his head) & endurance are very relevant here.
Although the cut stoppage was legitimate.

Some may say Vitali was unlucky or etc.

But again Vitali could've proved more in his career by mixing it with more upper echelon Heavyweights which he didn't do.

So Vitali is a bit more of a what if and more known for his historical losses and that's the problem when rating him.

No one truly knows how good Vitali was because IMO he didn't prove it enough against better opposition.[/QUOTE]

 

But we don't need to assume, it happened. I would say Vits was equally as tired and far more banged up. What's to say he would have kept his slight lead if the fight had continued?

 

Me saying we cannot assume was about whether Lewis would win.
You addressing the actual fact is a Straw Man; I never debated we knew that result.

No need to ask if we know Vitali would have kept up his slight lead~> because if I say we cannot assume Lewis would win, that literally means we cannot know either way.

The cuts made it definitive.
But we disagree that Vitali looked equally tired, & if you do a search about it you likely will see (like I just did) that Google or A.I. will describe Lewis as looking heavier legged, collapsing on his stool at the end of 6...

But both were tired, & I have been saying we can have no confidence about who would have won-without the cuts.
Given Lewis was fairly out of shape & his heaviest ever-let alone somewhat older-this is another reason why it is just more likely he would completely gas out first.

 

I don't get why tou even want to talk about if there weren't cuts and if Lewis would have won? There were cuts and he did win, end of story. And I personally don't care what AI says. I've seen the fight many times and know both men were very tired, yet Lewis was coming on.

 

Huh? The question was never about cuts, & we both wanted to talk about this.
A.I. has its faults, such as the massive news recently where some experts agree that there is 10% chance or more that within a decade it will eliminate all of humanity. But it can usually do a simple consensus opinion well, & there never was debate about both men being very tired, & Lewis coming on.

But it is relevant if one guy is more tired, collapsing on his stool, at 257 lbs./his maximum weight & not in as good shape.
Often people just psychologically over-identify with one guy & insist they are better or would win.
I am not doing that, just parsing what is more likely.

YOU were talking about it, & did not seem to understand that I said, once again, I was not insisting Vitali would have won.
Anyway, let's make this the end of story.

 

The Zhang criticism is fair, but to say Wilder "couldn't do anything against Chisora" tells me you obviously didn't watch the fight.

Wilder dropped Chisora twice, and nearly knocked him out of the ring but stadium staff and his corner illegally held him up. Chisora got the stuffing beat out of him in multiple rounds and got saved by the bell once or twice.

 

No.

 

You've been missed sir

 

I'm yet to search and see how may Foreman threads I need to catch up on... ... ...

 

They have been mostly a thing of the past for a year or so mate

 

Yes Vitali couldn't deliver against one of the worst versions of Lewis.

But Lewis & Wladimir have considerably better resumes than Vitali. So whilst they have shocking losses they also have much better resumes to fall back on.

So we have a better understanding of Lewis's & Wladimir's resume and we can make a better gauge of their H2H ability.

Vitali lost to the two best opponents he fought and he had great opportunities to do so and failed. Vitali also doesn't have a strong resume to fall back and his H2H ability is more guess work and assumption.

Unlucky is not the word i'd use.

Lewis opened up a horrendous cut on Vitali's face with a legitimate punch that required 60 stitches. In what world would that be classed as unlucky ?

Lewis has proven he can come from behind in back and forth competitive fights.

Vitali has not proven he can win a competitive back and forth fight in the 2nd half of the fight whilst consistently taking hard punches.

So when we have evidence of Lewis doing it and not Vitali so i'd say it's a bigger assumption on your part.

Especially considering Vitali has never come close to beating a fighter on Lewis's level.

Because it's just a big assumption based on no real evidence as i've already answered above.