If Muhammad Ali Fought Lennox Lewis At Their Respective Peaks..?

Well, that seems inconsistent with the Marquis of Queensbury rules.

In fact, judges are told to score rounds based on four criteria:

• Clean punching
• Effective aggression
• Ring generalship
• Defence

I'm not surprised to hear you say that - not surprised at all.

 

If Joe was washed for Manila so was Muhammad. Muhammad was the older and more shopworn fighter. By Manila he had been competing in organized boxing since he was 12 years old, had one hundred and five or so amateur bouts, fifty professional bouts and had been in wars with Norton, Foreman, and the man he was facing.

As to the clinching in the second bout the referee Tony Perez said Joe could have easily broke the clinch by sliding down, but he seemed to enjoy the breaks. And in the third fight Carlos Padilla said there was a downside to Frazier's corner complaining about holding because when Ali wasn't holding Joe he was punching him in the face.

 

50/50

 

I really do not think Frazier could have just slid out of the clinches.
Any more than the larger & stronger George Foreman avoided the clinches & getting his head & neck pulled down.
Ali was effective in these Dubious, Dark Arts.

 

Ali's fast feet keeps him away from LL power, his jab frustrates LL and he sneaks in a big right hand late to ko LL.

 

Joe could have done what Oscar did whenever Hector tried to hold him in their fight.

 

Imo, Ali had quite a a few fundamental techniques down pat. Of course, in perfect supplement, he also had and relied on his natural attributes in terms speed, reflexes etc.

To highlight Ali’s very real natural attributes I think some people go too far trying to diminish Ali’s technical abilities for maximum contrast and effect.

For one thing, Ali’s jab was extremely well educated, and then there was his straight right and right cross.

I’ve read that young Ali, when everyone else had left, stayed overtime in the gym, religiously practicing and reinforcing his punch techniques.

Just imo, I’ve sometimes read the reverse treatment re Mike Tyson’s raw power.

To bring the attention to and accent on Mike’s supporting hand speed, accuracy and punching in combination, I think some people underrate Mike’s sheer power of punch which he most def. had.

Anyway, just imo, a fighter like Roy Jones Jr. relied far more heavily on natural abilities than Ali did.

 

And even then, young Roy's style was grounded in plenty of technique; trap setting, baiting and using unorthodox angles and punches to disguise his wicked power, landing cleanly with punches that his opps couldn't react to.

 

Everything prime Roy threw was insanely fast so it’s difficult to pick out any given punch/combo that might perhaps stand above the rest.

At any rate, I’ve always liked this blindingly fast left and right hand that put Reggie Johnson down and Roy is also very quick in nicely backing himself away from any potential, return fire.

The hand speed he displayed there would be right up there with Roy’s fastest punches ever thrown, I would think.

I’d guess that they might’ve timed Roy’s punches at some stage but I personally haven’t come across same as yet.

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Did they miss any angles? LOL

I've seen this one bandied about before, it's otherworldly to be frank.

 

I'd say that's a pretty close assessment. Just to point out a few flaws of his:
- instead of bending at the waist (ducking), he would lean his upper body backward or use his footwork to step to the side, relying on his speed;
- he kept his right hand low and out to the side rather than up by his cheek, therefore he could not parry/block jabs. His left side was open, which is why Norton and Jones were able to land their jabs.
- his execution of the uppercut was flawed. When he threw a right uppercut, he did not throw it tight from the inside. Instead he looped it from the outside and dropped his hand first. Basically he "telegraphed" the punch, which left his chin exposed. His opponents could "see" the punch coming, they had time to anticipate it and could counter him. That's how Frazier knocked him down in their 1st fight.

He could not execute those things if he did not have tremendous speed and reflexes, and that's the thing you kinda refuse to acknowledge.
A very skillful boxer will still be very good as he gets old. Mayweather, B-Hop prove this. A boxer who's reliant on his physical attributes won't. Hence why Ali was **** after 1974.

He doesn't need an inside game comparable to theirs, he just needs to have the best win/loss ratio in a round robin tournament where every ATG boxes each other multiple times.

Demonstrated against anyone that was put in front of him while he was training properly.

No you did not miss anything. That's spot on.

 

Then I guess Buster Douglas is the super best HW.

 

If I agreed with you, it would mean dismissing clear fight footage and pretending that textbook orthodoxy is the only acceptable/useful form of boxing skill.

Skill isn't just standing in a high earmuff guard. By definition, skill is the application of knowledge, coordination, and learned technique to achieve an outcome. In boxing, that includes distance management, timing, leverage, ring generalship, and footwork.

You're confusing beginner-level orthodoxy with high-level ringcraft. Pep, Canzoneri, Locche, RJJ, Leonard, Hearns, and SRR all boxed outside of textbook posture. The irony is that when Pep or Locche slip shots with low hands, it’s celebrated as genius; when Ali does it at Heavyweight, you label it "a lack of skill." Ali's jab, cross, right hand lead, distance negotiation, footwork, ability to slip, duck and weave and pivot away from the ropes after baiting a headshot (just like Pep does) are all executed to elite levels of skill demonstration.

Ali vs. Liston I - Round 1:

Go watch Round 1 again. After testing Liston's range in the opening round, bouncing around with low hands and exaggerated headmovement, Ali raised his guard into a conventional high posture, took the centre of the ring, came off his toes and controlled the most feared puncher in the world using crisp single and double jabs, 1-2s, step-pivots, and subtle slips. He didn’t just run; he out-boxed Liston from the ring centre using fundamental ring generalship. He adapted his guard to the situation and demonstrated the exact definition of top-tier skill. We are talking about an Olympic gold medallist who dominated nearly two decades of boxing - he's not some Amir Khan or Zab Judah.

Biomechanics: Taller Fighters & Bending at the Waist

Taller outside boxers do NOT routinely bend at the waist to duck. Bending at the waist changes your center of gravity, ruins your posture, and places your head directly into uppercut and hook trajectories. Taller fighters level-change with their knees, step out, or use pull-back counters. Leaning back by millimeters to make a jab miss and returning a lead right isn't "bad technique".
It's elite spatial awareness and timing and requires hours and hours of practice to pull it off to the level with which Ali employed it. Being able to utilise it so effectively is by definition the successful execution of a skill grounded in a high risk high reward technique. Being able to pull it off due to superior speed and reflex doesn't diminish the skill - Roy, Floyd and Mr Hearns used right hand leads at various stages of their career - does it make them unskilled now cos they used superior speed and reflex to pull it off?

The Frazier Knockdown (FOTC Round 15):

Rewriting history to fit a narrative doesn't change the tape. Frazier didn't just counter a "telegraphed right uppercut." In the 15th round of a brutal war, an exhausted Ali dropped his right shoulder, and Frazier landed an all-timer leaping left hook. Attributing a 15th-round knockdown born of pure exhaustion met with remarkable timing to "flawed uppercut mechanics" is wild. Admittedly, he could throw a lazy uppercut, but he also finished Quarry with a very clean uppercut and hook combo, tightly thrown and landing flush. Larry Holmes, who threw a very good uppercut was also prone to throwing it from suboptimal range. You typically get this when fighters are tired or fighting shorter fighters and not wanting to step into the danger zone where they negate their height and reach advantages.

Post-1974 Adaptability:

If Ali was "sh*t after 1974" and relied purely on speed, how did he beat Foreman, Frazier (Manila), Lyle, and Shavers after his legs and reflexes had slowed down? He won on clinch mechanics, bicep control, leverage, pacing, and ring generalship. Adaptability when athleticism fades is the hallmark of someone using skill.

The Tyson Double Standard:

Any claiming Tyson "only lost when he didn't train properly" or that's his decline is due to loss of training correctly or no Rooney in his corner is an excuse, not an argument. You judge fighters on what they accomplished on the canvas. Tyson never once in his career came off the canvas or adjusted when Plan A failed against elite, un-intimidated opposition. Ali did it his entire career. You find flaws in Ali and Leonard in fights they won, while inventing video-game excuses for Tyson in fights he lost.

 

Who said Tyson's losses can be attributed to lack of training?

 

Yeah, tbh, I was a bit disappointed that they didn’t show us the upside down, inverted image, black and white perspective with bird emojis circling Reggie’s head. Haha.

I remember seeing it in real time and my reaction was somewhat of a jaw drop.

Imagine if Roy fought in the older era with less affording angles and replays - how many phantom punches might he have been accused of having landed? Lol.