Ali's career after Manila

You can say that, but he did beat Norton and Shavers while being significantly past his prime, and this is the stuff of legends.

 

What do you mean by "he was supposed to lose to Norton"? He was a betting favorite.

 

I assume that he meant on fair scorecards.

 

I don't know what "fair scorecards" are since the fight could have gone either way looking at press scoring and more outlets leaned towards Ali which legitimizes official scorecards.

 

I hear you.

Well, I agree that it's not the robbery that it is often made out to be but it depends on how you value the scoring criteria.

Ring generalship, effective aggression, defence and clean punching.

Some will feel that Kenny was the stronger on clean punching, ring generalship and effective aggression.

 

Most great champions go on for too long and Ali was no exception. He could have retired after Manila but that was never going to happen. The fight against Ernie Shavers in 1977 would have been ideal as his last fight. He took a lot of flush right hands from Shavers and he was coming up to 36 years old and definitely on the decline as a fighter.

 

Ali and Frazier, their rivalry made their reputations and destroyed their bodies.
When you see a guy like Ali end his career like he did, it is sad but it is inevitable. A man that made his name by not believing that he could lose takes some convincing at the end.

 

Yeah, that's why I said the fight could have gone either way.

 

He did great for a washed fighter who was already exhibiting neurological deficits from what we now know as early-onset Parkinson's Syndrome, up until the foolish choice to come out of retirement to fight Holmes and Berbick.

 

Well, honestly he didn't beat Norton, I had it at least 9-6 Ali .,while others had it wider. Ali's body language after the fight said it all he lost and he knew it. And there are many who thought he lost to Shavers, though I'm not one of them . As far as Ali's career, Ferdie Pacheco urged Ali to retire after the Manilla fight as the signs of his decline had accelerated.

 

I admittedly rarely agree with you but you're spot on here. I've never felt this was a robbery tbh. People here don't know how to distinguish between a close fight where the wrong guy may have gotten the decision but you can see where the judges are coming from, and a flat out robbery, extremely rare, where no case can be made for the official winner. Patterson-Ellis, and Foreman-Briggs, are two fights which fit the latter criteria imo

 

As to the body language Ali was likely frustrated with himself that he could never dominate Kenny. You could see it by his reaction after the second fight too. That's different than saying he wasn't competitive enough to make the judges make a decision or he lost the fight. Kenny said it best when he said he was satisfied with having three competitive fights with Muhammad Ali.

 

And those guys were no joke.
Norton wanted revenge and Shavers hit like a cannon ball.