"Drama in the Bahama" - a complete failure

You are just being silly here.

Under the best circumstances, Ali could have had a pushover farewell bout before lighting the Olympic torch in Atlanta. He was still sparring up to about that point. A fight against a Joe Hipp-type would have been a great send off for our greatest and only 6 time champion.

 

He tried to make amends several times. When Tom Hauser was writing his oral biography of Muhammad Ali, he became so close that he was living in his Berrien Springs home. He also became friends with Joe Frazier. When he interviewed Frazier he said look at Ali he's damaged goods. I made him that way. Lonnie , his wife, said did you hear what Joe said? Ali replied if that's the way he feels, that's the way he feels.

But I don’t know what else Ali could have done to demonstrate regret. He acknowledged that he had hurt Joe, acknowledged that some of the things he said were wrong, apologized publicly, and later declined to retaliate when Frazier said some exceptionally harsh things about his physical condition. Joe said he caused Ali's Parkison's. Ali didn't retaliate.

 

Has anyone told our friend Seamus Ali was officially diagnosed with Parkinson's in 1984?

 

A great farewell bout might have been a ten-round exhibition: five rounds each with Leon and Michael Spinks!

"I will go down in history as the only man to beat TWO brothers, TWO champions, on the same night! Five rounds each! They can alternate, so I'm getting a fresh Spinks every three minutes! You'll pay for a seat but you'll be standing all night! Come say good-bye to The Greatest!"

 

All always money ..

 

Ali looked like chubby Checker...

 

Ali made a public apology via a newspaper article but he didn’t apologise to Joe personally.

I think it’s fair to say that there are wrongs and associated damages that do exist that can’t necessarily be fixed or necessarily be forgiven in the face of a mere apology.

Over the course of their rivalry, Ali never let up on Frazier when he could’ve just as easily capped it much sooner followed by a proper apology, upheld by his modified actions following that apology.

Ali claimed all the smack talk was purely for promotion. I have to call bull**** on that claim. Ali had a mean streak which he displayed against other fighters but never so acutely and protractedly as he displayed same against Joe.

By the time of the rubber match in Manila, the already well established competitive rivalry between the two men and their already well earned reputations otherwise sold the fight in large part anyway.

What more could Ali have done besides apologising some 25 years after his last fight vs Frazier when he particularly ramped up his abusive rhetoric?

The obvious answer is nothing. The ship for for a genuine apology and duly afforded respect toward Joe following that apology during their rivalry had sailed many years prior.

If Joe did anything wrong it was only him allowing Ali’s barbs to eat away at him.

Joe was def. a good guy and I’m not aware of him having any issues with any other of the fighters he faced - only with Ali who himself had issues with several opponents over the course of his career.

 

Spinks Bros?

Think higher. Klitschko Bros!

 

He really wasn't Ali anymore. Hugh Mcilvaney nailed it. He said Ali didn't succumb to Berbick. He succumbed to exhaustion.

 

OK thanks for the persepctive.
Yet I read the Hauser biography & do not recall Ali ever apologizing.
We can find quotes (the famous Playboy interview, 1975) preaching how his people should be murdered if they got with/married the wrong race, it should be easy to link any quotes where Ali publicly apologized.
And hopefully with specifics, not just general "some of the thigs I said were wrong".

I am the opposite of an Ali, love a lot of what he did in general life too, but he was at best etremely naive about the Nation of Islam, & was a wife beater.

Maybe he DID apologize to Joe, let me see the evidence please.
Frazier was mean & bitter about it, which I would view with less charity if Ali did apologize to him especially publicly.
Ali sent a proxy to apologize-Hauser may well have documented this-& Frazier said send Ali himself, extreely reasonable to have the man he worked so hard to get back into boxing & gave money to face him man to man.

I am open to hearing how he did that, with specific sources.
Thank you.

 

Alrighty then, at least I know that such nonsense is sly humor.
But I am holding out for Zombie Ali to claim the title.
The 50th anniversary of fighting Liston would have been the perfect opportunity.

But he probably needs to get more brain-eating training in, & greater familiarity with the staggered steps of the Undead.
But clearly he would be one of the scary modern *fast* zombies.

 

I had to look up the Hegelian meaning of Geist, & whatever I may have learned about his philosophy of Spirit/Mind was long forgotten, so thank you!

THis is very well expressed, Kudos Resident Professor!
What do you do IRL?

Some do plant trees for aesthetic reasons, although even that is technically a purpose.
Yes freedom of choice is relative, & even where we techncially have it, given social pressures & obstacles it can be de facto prohibitively dificult & unlikely to realize.

 

Yes I figured it out & others pointed to it with Seamus, you were subtle enough that I was unsure, thanks!

 

Interesting how we went from a discussion of the debacle that was the Ali–Berbick match into an indictment of his entire life: “I have come to bury Muhammad Ali, not to praise him.”

I’m not going to denigrate one person to excuse or elevate another. But first, a preface. Dr. Dre, who was accused of domestic abuse, later said that any man who lays his hands on a woman is a “****ing idiot,” adding that he himself had been one. I’m sure Ali would have concurred.

Jesus said that the measure you use on others will be used on you. There is another boxer who appears prominently in this thread who was arrested after a domestic-violence complaint involving his female partner.

Ali said and did a lot of objectionable things when he was in The Nation*, which he left in 1975, but if we're going to widen a discussion of Ali–Berbick into a moral accounting of Muhammad Ali’s entire life, then the same standards should be applied consistently to everyone being invoked.

*I’m no admirer of the Nation of Islam, but its worldview did not arise in a historical vacuum.

 

Very well said, THANK YOU!

I would like to see the likely enfeebled apology he once made via a paper-which who knows if Frazier even knew about.
It is not like they were enemies & Frazier was rough with him before-fighting to get your license back & giving you money instead.

It was using racist & hateful tropes that got his kids bullied & to humiliate Joe.
And correct, in no way necessary for the fight.

An ugly, extended Betrayal of Frazier.