Why is it not held against Holmes legacy more that he was never the undisputed HW champion of boxing

When a thread on Larry Holmes gets into a debate about Floyd Mayweather, it’s probably time to end it. It’s boxing’s version of Godwin’s law.

 

I'm intrigued by the utter insanity of the arguments.

Holmes openly stated he was looking for easier fights and wouldn't face certain guys. That's pretty blatant and not really subject to different interpretations.

 

A few things here:

Ingo was also notable by KOing Machen in the first round, of course. He was deservedly the no 1 contender when Floyd fought him.

London was a stand in for Cooper, who had been so badly cut when he beat London that he couldn't make the planned fight with Patterson. Cooper had beaten Folley in the fight before London.

Harris had a win over Pastrano, so there were not only powder puffs on his resume. Unlike Cooney he had actually beaten a contender.

 

Norton was ranked by Ring when Cooney beat him.

 

He was? Yeah, he had just beaten Cobb right?

 

Yes.

The June 1981 edition published rankings from 15th April that year and Norton is ranked #9.

Incidentally, the July 1980 edition published rankings as of 1st May that year and Young is ranked #12.

 

That’s because you’re only obsessed with the numbers.

 

What on earth are you talking about?

Are you confused?

Are you trolling?

What’s the issue here?


Apart from Thomas, who was available who was better??

Weaver was out of the picture.

He couldn’t get the Coetzee fight over the line.

Coetzee beat Dokes in the same year that Larry fought Witherspoon.


So who was more deserving, who was available??

List the guys.

You can say Page, but after Larry dropped the belt to pursue Coetzee, Page lost back to back fights against Witherspoon and Bey, who an ageing Larry beat.


You’ve also moved the goalposts and made silly comments.

Again, at the time of fighting Witherspoon, I agree that it wasn’t a big fight. It was one that has aged better over time. However, he was still ranked in the top 10.

Now had Larry not have fought him, again, you’d probably be on here saying that he’d ducked a young Witherspoon, yet was happy to fight young Williams and Bey instead.

Also, he was never going to pass Tim up at the time, thinking that Tim might go on to do good things, so it’d be better to wait, so that he’d get more credit down the line.

And even if he did think that, if that plan hadn’t worked out and he’d not have ended up fighting him, again, you would have accused him of ducking.

And if I said to you “Actually, he did plan on fighting him, but he wasn’t big enough at the time” there’s no way on this planet that you would accept that.


Stop being silly.

Again, read the thread.

Look at the timelines and the circumstances.

Read the rest of the posts.


Larry fighting a young, no.10 ranked fighter was absolutely fine at the time.

 

I wouldn't say Holmes ducked the Witherspoon rematch, as there was never a pressure for him to rematch him. I pretty much agree wtith the rest.

He wasn't. Chris Byrd, who actually held a W over Vitali, was. And Lewis dropped the belt not to fight him.

 

I think rhis discourse is quite strange tbh. There must be pressure for a champion to defend against his most deserving contender? It should be automatic. And in pretty much every other sport it is. You prove you're the best against the best. You don't have to be pressured into it.

And as has been quoted several times already, Holmes flat out said he wanted no part of Wittherspoon among others. If that isn't a duck then the term is useless.

 

And then proceeded to fight a better opponent. You are going to have a very hard time convincing anyone that Byrd was a more dangerous opponent than Vitali in 2003.

This is the same Byrd that most had decisively losing to Oquendo

 

Louis won a decision against Walcott which was booed. Louis immediately rematched him.

Holmes win over Witherspoon was boooed. No immediate rematch. No rematch even when Tim beats Page, whom Holmes previously has ducked.

Holmes later says he is done with tough challengers like Witherspoon.

There is a difference here. One acts like a champion, the other doesn't.

 

I think Rodriguez, Frank, and Frazier were three especially poor defenses

Plenty of guys would be more deserving but off the top of my head better options would include
Thomas
Witherspoon rematch
Dokes
Tubbs
Page
Even relatively unproven guys like Tucker, Bruno would probably have been better choices. Maybe John Tate.

What was standing in the way of a Dokes fight once Dokes lost his title? That would have been at a later date maybe 84/85

 

This just proves that you haven’t followed the thread.


Page has been discussed numerous times.

Larry got more money for Frazier, and the signing on fee alone for Coetzee was also for more.

At the time, he thought that he was going to get mega money for Coetzee.

Now when it became clear that the fight wasn’t going to materialise, he came back to beat the number 3 Bey, who’d just beaten Greg Page.


Tate wasn’t doing anything. He’d dropped down a level and was fighting low level guys, completely out of the picture.


Dokes was also out of the picture having lost to Coetzee. He’d also dropped down a level and was facing mostly low level guys.


Bruno was still quite unknown, and he’d lost to Smith, who was inside the top 10, who Larry beat.


Tubbs didn’t start making waves until he fought Page and Smith in 85. Again, Larry had already beaten Smith at that point.


Thomas is the one who Larry should have pursued.


You can criticise him for not having rematched Witherspoon, but he was in his mid 30’s looking to break Rocky’s record.

I personally don’t think that you can criticism him too much for it.


Thomas was the big omission.


Now if you go away and do a bit or research, where you follow the timelines, you’ll see that most of your picks either weren’t viable, or weren’t deserving or needed.

You can’t just name drop guys without looking at the circumstances.


Again, even up to Spinks, Larry consistently fought top 10 ranked opposition.

 

It's almost as if Holmes did exactly what he said he was going to do. Who woulda thought? Swag nailed it in post #139, and it's come around again full circle