The real superheavyweights

Carnera, his size, weifght and set ups ....

 

Buddy Baer. A natural 245-250 lbs, and he was... what... 6'7?

 

Liston deserves a mention. He wasn't overly huge but he had the reach/strength/ power of a superheavy and was the first great big man to use the long, ramrod jab that really became a staple of the superheavyweight style that came after him. The only notable big men before him in size/reach/"presence" that employed a good jab were Carnera and Willard...who were nowhere near as powerful, technically proficient, and ferocious as Liston was.

I suppose you could include lesser-known guys like Fred Fulton...but most big men before Liston had poor durability and/or a weak skillset. Liston suffered from neither. Tunney had a great jab, far ahead of his time, but he was not a superheavy.

 

We must always keep in mind that we build on the past.

Anyone with some intelligence and vision can see a large-sized, young bloke with the natural aptitude and desire to be a professional boxing champion and get him on performance enhancers as well as a reasonably quality training regimen and produce a behemoth with the size befitting our better-fed generation, the power of steroids and the benefits of modern training. Performance enhancing substances are inexorably changing the equation.

IMHO, three fighters, one fictitious, two real, produced true quantum leaps that brought future generations along onto another level, with the aid of modern technology:

Rocky Balboa: chuckle, chuckle, but I bravely say, yes, sir. Carl Weathers said it best when he observed that the original Rocky strived to emulate real boxing and by the time Rocky IV rolled by, real boxing was striving to emulate Rocky, what with its 'roided, buff, punching machines. Effective knowledge of performance enhancers became available to the masses circa late '80s, early '90s, and only heaven knows just how many youths were actually influenced to action by the specimens that were Creed, Clubber, Rocky and Drago.

I posit Balboa and his peers for a time were the most persuasive exhibits for sculpted ring warriors with skill.

Parallel to this on-screen delirium, Evander Holyfield began doing amazing things in the real ring, jumping from cruiser to heavyweight and becoming quite possibly the second best heavy fighter of the '90s, more than holding his own against much larger men, with that suspicious He-Man physique that just kept on growing with every fight.

These guys were the beneficiaries of the evolution of knowledge, were around at the right time and exploited it for all its worth.

I think young Mike Tyson produced a quantum leap in that the '90s generation reached out to steroids to emulate the unprecedented combination of top speed and power that Tyson was naturally, soon forgetting mere celluloid heroes. Tyson was actually better than the fictitous Lang, who was like George Foreman, a clubber with little stamina, and Drago, a killer, but who lacked fast combinations to seal the deal early. If in the early '80s everyone wanted to copy Ali's jabbing and moving, by the end of the decade Tyson had eclipsed Ali by destroying his sticking-moving progeny and setting a new template for speed and power, which steroids conveniently facilitated.

Thus the last twenty years of boxing evolution, to T-Rex Valuev.

 

Valuev plays no part in the equation, seeing as how he's completely natural as opposed to manufactured. He was born to be what he is now, boxing had nothing to do with it.

Anyway, the Rocky comparison is apt, even in the sense that Balboa/Stallone was very "natural" in the first one, physically.

Starting in the second movie the entire cast was roiding, and that continues with Stallone to this friggin' DAY as he's caught with steroids in other countries and suffering from the bloat of them in recent movies like Rambo.

 

You may well be right. There is no evidence of his juicing, but it's just the natural thing to do today, and, sorry, I guess it just felt natural for me to mention him.

 

There is no set definition of a " super heavyweight ". I think the minimum qualifications hover around 6'4", 78" reach, and 225+ pounds. Give or take an inch or pound if one measurement is a lot bigger than the others.

Until recently, most super heavies lacked top end speed and skills. The names in chorological order of early super heavyweights were fighters like Dunkhorst, Willard, Fulton, Tate, Carnera, Godfrey, Simon, and Buddy Bear.

The modern version of skilled super heavyweights have pretty much dominated the #1 spot since Riddick Bowe in 1992. They are Bowe, Lewis, Klitschko, and Klitschko. These fighters are far more skilled than the early super heavies. The four men combined have only lost ONE decision, and that was very close fight vs another all time great in a controversial affair ( * Fan man, which IMO allowed an often gassed Holyfield 17 minutes re-charge his batteries )

My theory is skilled supper heavies will pretty much win any boxing match vs smaller boxer types without power, and generally hit harder than the talented swarmers of the era. It seems they are most vulnerable to big punchers, just like most fighters are.

 

Well you got to remember that Lewis, the Klitschko's and Bowe were acomplished amatuers....Bowe had some cold spots and was not always dedicated as a pro but they were all talented Big men and the only Big men Super or 2xx heavys who we would suggest could have a shot vs the ATGs of the division....No one at this point in time has Lewis, Bowe,V.Klitchcko or Vlad in there top 3 ATG heavyweight list and not many pick them to beat Louis,Ali,Marciano, Dempsey but then again it is hard to bring and man back in time and deduct the size, the 12-15 rd distance or the weight training weight and it is hard to bring the ATGs foward

 

At this point, no. But In 25 years from now, maybe the perception will change.

Louis, Ali, Marciano ,and Dempsey never fought a talented super heavyweight close to equal to Bowe, Lewis, or Klitschko. Bowe to me had great stamina in his prime. Lewis and Vitlai could have gone 15. Wlad, I think could go 15 too as long as he doesn't punch himself out.

The closest thing Ali fought to a skilled super heavy was Kenny Norton, and Ron Lyle. To say Ali had his hands full in these fights in an under statement.

Rocky would look tiny next to moder super heavies. Louis would need to work on his defense and footwork, because he won't out fight them.

Dempsey, I think with his speed, mobility, and style might have to fine tune his game the least of the four.

 

Bowe was well on his way to losing a decision in Golota I and II if it wasn't for the DQs....granted, Golota was also a superheavy.

 

Bowe, Lewis, and Klitschko never fought anybody that was close to Louis, Ali, Marciano, and perhaps Dempsey's caliber, the only exception being Lewis beating Vitali.

The first is a fairly valid point, but the second isn't a given.

Or get KO'd.

Why did you leave out Liston and Foreman, who he embaressed? Liston may have been "short", but he was monstrously strong, heavy-handed, and skilled. Ali made a joke out of him.

Foreman may not be "skilled" in your eyes, but he sure cut a path through the HW division until a past-it Ali knocked him out.

Ali was well past it in the Foreman, second and third Norton fights, and Lyle, too.

Hell, Earnie Terrell was massive and used the jab/grab style that superheavies seem to enjoy lately, and Ali flat-out toyed with him. Terrell wasn't a world-beater, but it sure seems that Ali fought a few "big man with a jab" types and ****ed them all up. The only time he ever lost to one was when he was over the hill and ten pounds overweight, a loss he avenged 2x, to a Norton didn't even fight like the Klitschkos or Lewis did.

The first is a legitimate observation, but who says that Louis would need to outfight a supearheavy?

That's like saying "Mike Tyson cannot beat a superheavy because he is short and has a tiny reach, two things he cannot change". You don't have to beat a superheavy at their own game when you can get in close and stretch them out cold like these two did.

I think Dempsey's level of comp was so bad that he'd have the hardest time out of any in adjusting...but to each his own!

 

On his way to losing his life you mean.

 

It's also worth pointing out that Golota is a large man himself, of course.

Just an inch shorter than Bowe at 6'4", normally clocking around 240-245lbs.