Ezzard Charles@168 - WTF happened against Jimmy Bivins and Lloyd Marshall?!

Elmer Ray did not stop many highly ranked heavyweights so his power seems a bit questionable.

 

Actually, I accept perfectly that someone would have suspicions about a fighter's chin based on stats they look at. That's how this whole thread came about, because someone had suspicions that he wanted addressed.

But that's all they are, just suspicions. Not certain beliefs.

There's a difference between having suspicions based on stats, and making a certain arguments off of them.

 

There are other factors that prevent knockdowns, yes.

There are not other factors that enable a fighter to take big, solid, flush powerpunches square on the chin without going down, or even being seriously hurt. The only one is chin.

That's why I was very clear and insistent that I pointed to fights where Charles visibly took and withstood big powerpunches, not simply fights where he "didn't get knocked down". If I was going to point to fights where Charles was simply "not knocked down" against a big puncher, there's many more that I could've pointed to.

No one. As I said earlier, I wouldn't take a stance on something either way unless I felt I was sufficiently familiar with it first.

What's wrong with that?

Not really. Your just making an assumption that in any fight where Charles was dropped, that automatically means he didn't show durability in that fight. That would be like saying Jeff Lacy didn't show durability against Calzaghe, or Erik Morales didn't show durability in his first fight with Barrera, because both were dropped at some point along the way. How do you know Charles didn't show toughness too even in some of the fights he was knocked down? How do you know exactly how much punishment Charles did/didn't withstand in some of those fights he was knocked down in?

I already said earlier in the thread, I don't see the need to make reasons/excuses for Charles' knockdowns (especially the two you mentioned) as Charles has done enough in his career to sufficiently prove his mettle. HOWEVER, since you are absoluetly insistent on me giving reasons for them, I'll give them: Charles was dropped by Overlin in a fight where he was ridiculously overmatched (because of the enormous skill/experience gap at that stages in their careers) and never belonged in, and he was dropped by Matthews (who was considered a hard puncher, BTW) at a time when he had been outright washed up (not simply "old" or faded) for at least a year or two and was beginning to show symptoms of Lou Gherig's disease, which eventually killed him. Of all the knockdowns you've mentioned, those two are actually the least ones to build a case off of IMO.

Since you asked about the first fight with John Holman, that too came when Charles just about shot. Charles was winning the fight most of the way, but he got gassed badly toward the end and took a severe shellacking before being stopped. In the rematch, Charles made the absolute last stand of his career, and outhustled Holman in an ugly inside kind of fight to win a decision.

 

Out of interest what mark out of 10 would you give Ezzard's chin?

 

I think I could safely say there are more examples of Charles having a solid chin than of Muhammad Ali having 7.5/10 for power. Of course, that's why I rate Ali 6/10 for power. Charles' chin is 7/10 for a light heavyweight.

 

Exactly what I would've given it.

I'd up Ali's power to a 6.5/10.

 

The way i see it Charles's chin was above average while all his other aspects were stellar. Still compare his chin to those of all the other men in your top 15 list ( assuming Charles is in there) and you will most likely see that his would be the weakest.

 

And that's about it.

 

Top fifteen list of what? Heavyweights? I thought we were talking about Charles in his prime.

 

Top 15 P4P is obviously what he is talking about.

 

Obviously? How?

 

You simply have to be kidding.

 

Even the "assumng Charles is in there", do you really think this guy would assume Charles would be outside your top 15 list of ANYTHING let alone 175'ers given your previous comments?

Give the man a go.

 

Rate these then for chin

Lewis
Hearns
Moore
SRL

 

:huh

I have no idea why you're trying to make me feel stupid. You'll need more than this though, and no I am not rating anything for you.