Sorry for the modern intrusion, but Roy Jones - if he beats Joe where does he place?

HALL NOT HILL, ofcourse DM beat Hill fair and square, Hall was winning the fight when the fight was prematurely stopped due to home town officials

No one is better at 160-175 than Toney and Hopkins around this period

Your hypocracy is evident, DM and Jones are the same age, DM is supposedly shot when he loses but you claim Jones is 'only slightly past prime' when he loses at a more advanced age

 

1. Toney was P4P no1 in 1994 for many, so use yoru revisionism to belittle what he did at 168 if you wish, you are ofcourse full of BS. Barkley was so done he was coming off a second best career win over Hearns who had just beaten Hill

2. In what subsequent fights did Hopkins not look the best at 160 (waits for the boxrec warrior to point out Mercado who got a gift draw against Hopkins)

3. Jones won every round against McCallum pretty much, fighting McCallum isnt meant to be easy meat you fool

4. Hall was beating DM until it was unjustly stopped, learn to read I never said Hill was beating DM

5. Jones played with Tito and put him down a few times, Winky couldnt put him down, but yes Tito won a couple of rounds against Jones

 

Sorry, read Hill. Still, Hall was not winning the fight.

Sure, there is nobody better than Hopkins. Tones is more than debatable. DM, Calzaghe, Ottke for sure did better work at their wieghts than Toney and a few others like Hill as well. But I was not speaking of them but of the rest.

Hypocracy? Jones and DM fought a totally different style. DM was basically a brawler and took much more punches than Jones. That style isn´t suited for a long prime. Watch the fights. You are so biased it isn´t funny anymore. :-(

 

Yeah, many forgot that he arguably lost to McCallum, Johnson, and was getting clearly outboxed by Nunn before salvaging himself with a late rally and ludicrously put him above Whitaker. Well, just how great he was at 168 soon got exposed when he fought Roy Jones. Didn't come close to touching a p4p list after that fight.

As for your Barkley was coming off a good win against Hearns who beat Hill argument, it's the same argument rooster uses in saying Leonard had beaten Duran who just beat Barkley so when Norris whipped Ray's ass it was a meaningful win. Anyone that saw Barkley against Toney knows that Barkley was pretty much done.

So you're telling me Hopkins was at his middleweight best when he foguht Mercado? Geez, I better go consult boxrec and see what they say about that

He did not win every round at all and when you're fighting a 40 year old McCallum it better be easy to justify the nuthold you have on old Roy boy.

No, he was not beating DM before it was stopped. It was close, but I couldn't see it more than a draw if you were Hall's cheerleader.

That Jones even fought Tito is a disgrace, and that he lost rounds to him just signified how far Roy has fallen. Winky put on a more dominant display by far and was at least a comparable size to Tito. Neither fight is of real importance to either fighter though and it's simply funny that you even mentioned it to try and bolster Roy's credentials.

 

Toney was also immensly weight drained. Everybody who at least tries to be objective could see that. A peak Toney without weight-drain would have given Jones a much better fight - he would have still lost.

Hopkins prime was at least 4 years later - most people think his peak performance was against Trinidad 8 years later - still a solid win but not a great one.

Oh, yeah insultung somebody certainly strengthens your argument - who instults is wrong is a common sying here in Germany :good. Firstly that fight was closer than you admit - still a clear win. And McCallum was ancient and three weightclasses above his best weight. Solid win but nothing special.

DM was winning fair and square. Close fight but DM was up.

You totally ignore that Winky fought a younger Trinidad, a Trnidad at mw who has proven his worth there against Joppy in comparison to Jones who fought him at a weight he never fought before and at which Jones himself was thought of the best ever h2h. Winky didn´t put him down? Yea, but have you ever heard about style differences?

It seems you life in your own world when it comes to Jones :-(

 

1. Disagree, close but clear for Hall and a bad stoppage

2. Toney has some of the best opposition from 160-168 ever pretty much, to this day Calazage has not faced the quality of opposition Toney faced.

Calazage was a fringe titlist until 2005, he had become a bit of a joke by avoiding fights at 168 and pulled out with 3 fights with Glen Johnson and didnt step up until the Lacy fight. Calazage had achieved about as much as a Otis Grant/Reggie Johnson at that stage and was unknown in the US. Hes fighting Calazage now, again you ignore the fact both Calazage and Jones say promoters blocked the fight from happening in the past.

Otke was a running joke with loads of gift decisions and didnt want to step out of the US.

DM fight should have happened, but DM wouldnt come to American and Jones had good reason not to goto the US

3. Yes hypocrazy, Jones relied on his reflexs and speed, guess whats the first things to go when you age, reflex and speed.

 

1. It doesnt change the fact that Toney was 1 of the best fighters of the last 20years. In boxing when you fight the best you have hard nights. And actually toney was around the P4P top 10 after Jirov/Holyfield wins

2. Its completely different Barkley was active beating Hearns who himself just beat Hill. Leonard was innactive and only beating an ancient Duran.

Actually Barkley looked pretty good against Toney

3. Hopkins was at his physical prime around this time, he may have got technically better over the years. However he beat Mercado twice for a world title only to be robbed of 1 win. It doesnt change the fact he didnt lose for 12years after the Jones fight.

4. Why McCallum was still a world class fighter, who is 1 of the greatest stylists of our times, was Moore and Hopkins **** at 40 too? As you mentioned he arguably (not on my card) beat Toney a few years earlier and was fighting the best LHWs. McCallum didnt turn pro until 25, so he was a late starter like Hopkins. Was he prime? No, was he easy to beat? No, but Jones beat him emphatically, unlike Calazage-Hopkins for example

5. Ofcourse he was beating him, close but clear, this is 1 of the most controversal fights of recent years and alongisde Otke is the reason most dont want to goto germany. Why do you think there was a rematch?

 

1. Toney always weight drained, is it Jones job to get him in shape for the fight too? Jones is all wrong for Toney

2. Hopkins was physical prime at 28, he'd get technically better over the years but lose his physical assets. Lets remember Hopkins didnt want a rematch for 40% of the purse, why was that?

3. Its a very good win, I didnt call it a great 1. Its like Hopkins-Calazage, an old foxy fighter bringing a tough game to the table.

4. Obviously we disagree, but as you mention, you are from Germany and a DM/Otke fan

Basically against all opposition Jones was more dominant than DM and DM turned down money to face Jones

5. This isnt the best win, its a past prime decent win and dominant win. Greb and many old timers gets plaudits for beating fighters way past their prime or way up in weight, why not Jones?

6. You conviently ignore the other top champions and contenders Jones beat

 

Sure you do, you are a Jones fanboy.

Calzaghe was seen as the best 168er after Ottke retired and even before that most thought he would beat Ottke. Yeah, he was not knonw in the US and? My whole argument is about fighting and beating the best, not the guys who bring the most money. You just proved my point that Jones did go for the money instead of facing the best.

Why should he go to the US? To get screwed like Schulz? Also he made more money fighting in Germany. No reason to go there. Ottke was no joke. He had some close controversial calls but the only fight he should have clearly lost is the Reid fight when he was already very much past it. And he fought the best available opposition at his weight. But who am I talking to, you think Johnson beat him which just is a blatant lie. atsch

My argument is, like I said numerous times before, if Jones would have wanted to become great he would have made fight like these happen. He would have come to Germany. He didn´t therefore he never wanted to be really great but only wanted to make money without risking much.

There were no indications that Jones was shot before the second Tarver fight. Most thought that the sideeffects of coming down from 200 pounds to 175 pounds weakened him and that´s why he didn´t look good against Tarver the first time around but that he would correct the outcome in the second fight. Also, everybody thought he would beat Johnson. Nobody thought he was shot then.

 

I agree with the second part but beating a weight drained fighter definitly hurts the standing of a win.

So, you think Jones beat a prime Hopkins? Sorry but that´s laughable. Hopkins was much much better later on. Imo the loss to Jones was for Hopkins what the losses to burley were for Moore.
Let´s remember Jones didn´t want a rematch for 50% of the purse, why was that? That game can be played both ways. It was only about egas and pride, nothing else. BS from both.

Nah, it´s not a very good win. Beating a 40 year old fighter, three weightclasses above his best is at best a solid one but nothing more.

So, everybody from Germany is automatically a DM and Ottke fan? Bs. I´m not a fan of either one. They just get either forgotten far too often, DM, or get too much bs, Ottke. I always stand up for such fighters, no matter from where they are.

Surely Jones looked better against them. Jones had the style and physical assetes to do so, ever heard of styles? Or do you think Ali is a worse hw than Tyson because he didn´t dominate his opposition like Tyson did? Yeah, turning down fake offers is a bad thing :roll:

No it´s not a decent win. That fight was a freak act and bad for the sport itsself. Two shot fighters fighting at a weight absolutly not suited for one of them is a disgrace in itsself. That fight meant nothing for either ones career.

Which top champions? That´s my point. He should not have fought some contenders but the best fighters around his weights. He did not.

 

1. The weight draining is an excuse, Toney always weight drained, was it worse for the Jones fight? Maybe, maybe not, but your forgetting weight drained fighters have the advantage of being bigger on fight night

2. Why don't you start a thread asking who would win, Jones beat a physically better Hopkins at a canter. Its pretty laughable to suggest Jones wouldnt be a massive favourate to win. Jones didnt offer Hopkins 50-50, because 1. Jones was P4P no1 2. Jones was the draw 3. Jones had already beat BHOPs and Jones had other paydays out there. 60-40 was a damn good offer for Hopkins

3. We'll go round in circles on this

4. Yes most I come across from Germany rate DM and Otke excessively highly, like most from Britain rate Hatton/Eubank/Benn excessively highly. You are no exception

5. No Jones was simply a league above DM and looked way way better against Hill, Hall, Griffin, Gonzalez, did they all have bad styles for DM Ohhh DM also ducked Tarver

6. Its a good past prime win

7. Go back and read my previous post, he beat many many champions, around 15 champions

 

Learn to read:

Toney - ATG - Dominated best at 168

Hopkins - ATG - Wide UD best at 160

McCallum - ATG 3weight champ, old, but dominated, still WBC champ at 175

Reggie Johnson - IBF 175lb champ and 2weight titlist, has a win over Steve Collins who in turn beat Eubank and BEnn - dominated

Mallinger - beat Benn, arguably beat Eubank, became WBC Champ. Dominated and dispatched in 6rounds

Tarver - cleaned out 175 before and after - close win past prime before losing the next 2

Ruiz - top HW - 30

Virgil Hill - ex champ, top3 at the weight destroyed

Hall - got robbed against DM in 1 fight the year after

Gonzalez - would go on to beat DM

Woods - future champ

Tate - went 12 with Julian Jackson for WBC title, got taken out in 2 by Jones

Grant - middleweight titlist

Griffin - Beat James TOney twice, 1st round ko against the man who got a DQ against Jones

Trinidad - both old and Tito above his best weight but Winky was made P4P for beating the same Tito less convincingly

 

Unless Jones catches Calzaghe early. I think the fight will go much like the Marquez-Casamayor fight. Jones & Casamayor still have some of the old moves left, but in the late going against a pressure fighter. Jones will wilt, His legs are gone. Against Tarver He was ready to fall on his own. Trinidad did not press nearly as much as Calzaghe will. I see a bad ending for Jones in this one...

 

Are you kidding??!?

Winky made the p4p list for beating the SAME Tito LESS CONVINCINGLY?!

This is a ****ing crazy comment!

Winky Wright beat a Tito Trinidad fighting at 160lbs, a weight at which Trinidad was coming off 2 stoppage victories, his last fight before Winky was 7 months earlier, an excellent stoppage win over Ricardo Mayorga.
Scores: 120-107, 119-108 twice.
One of THE most dominant victories of this century.

Roy Jones beat a Tito Trinidad fighting his first ever fight at 170lbs, TEN pounds higher than he had ever fought at before. Trinidad was coming off a THREE-YEAR lay-off, his last fight being an absolute shut-out landslide loss... to Winky Wright.
Scores: 117-109, 116-110 twice.
A fight fought at sparring pace, a joke of a contest between two shot legends.


The same Tito?! Sober up.
How you can say Winky was LESS CONVINCING is truly stunning.