You guys have to take into account the fact that Couture has grown with the times. He would be considered possibly the greatest of all time, because of his great wins, and great accomplishments. People are looking too deep into his losses. Randy came into the MMA world as just a wrestler with some small boxing experience. So, we can't just ake all of his losses and act like they define him. With each loss or win, he grows, learns and gets better. At 44 years old, still fighting the best and being Heavyweight Champion of the biggest MMA organization in the World is already just amazing. Imagine if Couture was able to get into MMA at 20 years old, and grew with the times to hit his prime technically and physically in his 20's? Can you imagine what a prime years Randy, with the sort of mind that he has would be able to do? In other words, we are talking about an old man who is so gifted that even at 44 years old he is still learning and beating the top fighters out there. If he were able to beat a Prime Fedor at that age, he would be the best ever.
Sullivan's opponents commented that his most intimidating characteristics were lifeless looking black eyes...the moustache may look a little eccentric, but I imagine that John L. wasn't a pretty customer when he was angry.
You can't overlook loses. You don't become a champion by losing. The reason he's been fighting top competition most of his career is because he's been given a chance to. We'll have better success if we decide common grounds of what characteristics define GOAT.
Randy has been the two time Light Heavyweight Champion, and the three time Heavyweight Champion. I don't think that the "you don't become a champion by losing" phrase fits too well in this discussion.
Some of the criteria is subjective from person to person. I, for instance, like ABC belts--theoretically, they mean that you've proved yourself the best fighter in the talent pool that the ABC belt represents. Hence the importance I place on Pancrase, for instance. Tournament wins are also quite important--they show a diverse ability to fight at a moment's notice. Multiple weightclass victories help as well. And of course, quality of opposition. Age is another mitigating circumstance. SweetScienceFan is right when he says that Couture can be considered "green" in a couple of his early defeats. They can't be excused, but they're at least more understandable in that light. And despite his losses, he did manage to win belts in multiple weight classes, multiple times, often when very old, AND won a tournament, AND beat the GOAT. If he beats Fedor, he will fulfill all of the criteria listed.
Not only would Couture have an amazing resume with wins over Chuck Liddell, Tito Ortiz, Vitor Belfort, Kevin Randleman, Maurice Harris, Pedro Rizzo, Tim Sylvia, and Fedor Emelianenko, among others... it would be the fact that he beat them all when they were considered at the best in the career. Vitor Belfort was labeled "the phenom", and was just melting through his competition in MMA before Couture shocked the world by dominating and stopping the undefeated Belfort. Maurice Smith was at the high point of his career. He was the UFC Champion, and had just beat Mark Coleman and stopped Tank Abbott when Couture beat him. Kevin Randleman was the UFC Champion and at the high point of his career as well. He was taking the UFC by storm with wins over Maurice Smith, a highly disputed loss to Bas Rutten where he controlled Bas for most of the fight, and wins over Pete Williams, and Pedro Rizzo when he ran into Couture and Couture beat him for the title as well. Pedro Rizzo was 11-1 with wins over Coleman, Abbott, Severn, and had just knocked out Josh Barnett when Couture beat him in back to back fights. Directly after Couture beat him Rizzo went on in his next fight to knock out Andre Arovski. Definetly the high point in Rizzo's career as well. Chuck Liddell was on an absolute terror on a 10 fight win streak (the longest of his career) with wins over Monson, Randleman, Mezger, Belfort, and Babalu during that streak. Couture was 2 weeks away from being 40 years old, and completely dominated Liddell. Tito Ortiz was the longest reigning UFC Champion in history. Was extremely dominant and considered a sure thing by a lot of people to wax the 40 year old Couture. Randy dominated and completely outclassed Tito for every minute of every round of their fight. Tim Sylvia was also a dominant UFC Champion, like it or not. Was also definitely at the high point of his career. 23-2 with wins over the likes of Ricco Rodriquez, Mike Whitehead, Cabbage, Wes Sims, Silva, back to back wins over Arlovski and then a dominant win over Monson. Randy came out of retirement and absolutely dominated the man who was much larger than himself. Dominated Sylvia for every minute of every round of their fight as well. On their feet, and on the ground. Now, if he was to also defeat Fedor as Fedor is at this point in time, that would simply be amazing, and yes he would go down as the greatest ever. Especially considering that he would have also had to beat Gabriel Gonzaga at the height of his career, coming off of a devastating knockout win over Cro-Cop as well.
Gonzaga was 1 big win, and you are assuming he is going to be a real threat for years to come. We dont know that.
I must not have made my post very clear if that is all that you got out of it. I thought that it was pretty well stated. I certainly wasn't basing that post around a win over Gonzaga.
Like I've previously stated Randy's great wins are countered by his loses. What IS Randy's prime? For every highlight of his career he has loses. He's a solid fighter who fought great competition but he never went beyond the point of being great fighter to be considered GOAT. Couture is not dominant wether u like it or not. With the scenerio in discussion its hard to come to conclusion. But i dont think Couture would be GOAT, i just think it cripples Fedor's GOAT resume. My criteria for MMA GOAT would be dominance of top competition of different type of fighters showing versatility in that dominance.
I know you werent, and it was a good post, but read the post above mine, ufoalf makes a damn good case
The point is that all fighters have losses, and if Fedor (the only top ATG worthy guy who that can be argued for) loses to Couture, it would shed light on the fact that maybe Fedor was so dominant, because of the quality of his opposition? His greatest wins are against Nog, and Cro-Cop. Cro-Cop has already been knocked out by a UFC up and comer, and NOG looked awful in his debut, almost getting knocked out himself. So, maybe the myth surrounding Pride having the greater fighters would simply be busted wide open even more? Fedor is awesome, and has a great resume, however we are dealing in the hypothetical situation that he comes over and loses to Couture.
