Primo Carnera was as legitimate a champion as any there has ever been.

Well, there´s a difference. With Ali it was due to his standing as an icon, the judges didn´t get anything from it. With Valuev it was corruption.

 

True, but in both cases, the fighters themselves had nothing to do with it directly. Well, Ali did in a way, but that was just a side effect of his character, so to speak.

 

Yep but it was the same with Carnera. His handlers fixed the fights not him. Personally, I have plenty of respect for men like Carnera or Valuev who made so much out of their lackluster talent, more than for guys like Lewis or Tyson who just, more or less, fullfilled their talent.

 

Are you agreeing or disagreeing?
Max was good fighter no doubt but the two Sharkey fights, the Baer fight, Uzcuden, Hamas, Louis 2 and Gypsy Daniels contests preclude him IMO from the level that some people on this forun give him.

 

Of course everone knows Ali paid Eddie Futch to hold Frazier down at the start of the 15th rd,Ali got gift decisions in virtually all his fights ,common knowledge.

 

What are you talking about? He was losing the first fight but it ended in the 4th of 15 rounds. How do you know how it would have continued? You would have a point if it would have been past the 10th.
The second Sharkey fight most people had Schmeling winning. Gunboat Smith, the ref of this fight who gave it to Sharkey, himself admitted Schmeling was the better fighter.
Uzcudun? Wtf? Uzcudun was one of the top contenders of this era, Schmeling beat him two times and had a draw in Uzcudun´s hometown whoch he very likely should have won.
The first loss against Hamas was a legit loss but he beat him in the rematch quite impressivly. Didn´t he?
The Baer fight was about even until the stoppage and it was on Baer´s best night. Watch it.
Louis 2? Can you believe what pressure he was under? His wife at the home of Goebbels, he couldn´t really sleep because the Americans where constantly under his window shouting, he had everybody against him in America and in Germany everybody was sure he would win, huge expectations. Everybody would have crumbled mentally in that one.
Gypsy Daniels was his last fight at lhw. He was known to have had problems making lhw long before this fight. Go figure ...

Sorry, there are points you can use to critizise Schmeling but surely not these.

 

During nearly all of Ali's close fights, i.e. Doug Jones, Frazier II, Norton III (not even close actually), Shavers, Young and Norton II, Ali's hand was raised at the end. Did he deserve to lose all of those? No, but if his name was John Clyde, his opponent would've gotten the decision in at least half of those fights, and his resume/career would've looked less impressive.

 

Schmeling didnt lay a glove on Sharkey in the first fight, maybe he might have turned it around but there is no evidence to suggest he would have. The fight ended in the forth and the point is, Max was unimpressive.
Sharkey 2, I have never read a line that said either man was impressive. I have never seen the complete fight but who deserved the decision is irrelevent to my contension that Schmeling was not impressive.
Uzcuden was a great fighter, come on... ever hear of Risko, Delaney, Griffiths, A 170 pounds Walker, Carnera twice, once in Spain(remember him) Schaaf(with 14 losses) and a load more yet you think a draw with Paulino and then a win over the 36 year old Basque in Germany was a good performance. Of course Schmeling was better than Uzcudun but my contension is tha Schmeling had a lot of off days.
Ditto Hamas who won at least 8 rounds over a peak Max and bloodied him plenty. Than Max won the rematch easily just proves my contention that Schmeling had a very bad day first time out.
One year after the Daniels fight Max weighed only 181 when under no weight restrictions so I don't think the weight issue holds water.
The Baer fight I've watched and I was disappointed with the German's defence and view this as a poor performance from his point of view.
Finally I'd give him a pass on the second Louis fight because he was past it but despite whatever pressures he was under you can hardly say he was impressive.
I dont mean to thread all over your hero, he was a great fighter with some great wins, notably Louis, Stribling, Hamas, Neusell etc but the fact remains that HE HAD A LOT OF OFF DAYS.

 

Sorry but this is so biased that´s not funny. I gave you an explanation for each of these losses but you just ignore everything and talk ****. Calling the Sharkey, Baer, Uzcudun, Hamas and Daniels fights off nights is just BS. Losses are not off nights, sometimes the other man just is better.

 

I originally stated "Schmeling had some pretty bad nights too" and I have attempted to back up my argument and I am happy with my contentions. I am not in the least biased, why should I?
Your accusiation of "Talking ****" is an impressive bit of debating and perhaps you could address this debating talent to explaining how failing to defeat Hamas, Daniels and Uzcudun can be passed off as losing to a better man seeing as how on other occasions he roundly defeated all three?

 

Janitor, I never mentioned who Schmeling lost to when he was 18, I too dont give Jack **** about this.
It the Sharkey 1 , Schmeling was poor. That's a fact. What might have happened if it went on is just conjecture. Your point that Schmeling was so impressive in his fights prior to this just adds to my contension that he was SOMETIMES inconsistant.
Sharkey 2, many thought he won and as I didn't see all the fight I can concede that maybe it was a good performance, I just don't know and I suppose having a close 15 rounder with Sharkey is probably not a bad effort.
The draw with a 35 year old Uzcudun was not impressive, read the reports. It appears that Max just about should have got the nod, yet you don't think that that was an off day from a man who was about to defeat Joe Louis and whom had hammered a peak Uzcuden years before?
The very fact that he lost to Hamas by a wide margin and this completely reversed the decision smacks of inconsistency dont you think?
Read the posts, Max has my approval, just nothing you have posted stands up to my claim that he had some off days himself.
I also think he was the most consistant of the 1930 champions pre-Louis, never said he wasn't but that don't make him consistant.

 

Grin,
just took my chill pill!
ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz