James Toney vs Joe Calzaghe (168lbs)

Yeah it would not be like Jones/Toney,

 

Another thing. People often pick Toney outright against any type of swarmer based on his inside skills and ability to fight off the ropes. It's true he was top notch in that regard, but if you think he's just going to be countering a guy like Calzaghe the way he was a guy like Barkley you're sorely mistaken. With a fighter like Barkley, who threw wide, telegraphed shots, Toney was able to perfectly time him consistently, and with his superior reflexes and technical skills, was able to weave in and out of his punches with ease while putting himself in a perfect position to counter. It was a clinic for Toney, showcasing his best work, but against a shop worn fighter who completely played into his hands and had really nothing to offer.

If you think Toney will be bobbing, weaving, and slipping Joe's superfast flurries the same way he was Barkley's slow, telegraphed swings, you've not thought it through properly. Also, the fact that guys like Barkley and Williams were always in a position to be hit made it much easier for Toney to get set, which again wouldn't be the case with Calzaghe, who has some of the quickest feet ever and is a great in and out fighter.

I still see it as a close affair, but Calzaghe's versatility would pull through. This is a fight I'd have been willing to be a good amount of money on had it ever had the opportunity to take place (though it obviously didn't).

 

Toney is a harder hitter than Hopkins though and I believe he could hurt Calzaghe the more he hits him. Jirov threw over a 1000 punches when he fought Toney and he never hurt him once and he hits much harder than Calzaghe and Toney still broke him down. I could see Toney stopping Calzaghe in this one and in terms of will and skill, Calzaghe has never fought anyone like a prime Toney. Hopkins is the close and he was past his prime.

 

Well Toney might not pose too many problems with lateral movement, but he certainly would with the second factor you mention - ring generalship. When Hopkins knocked JC down, he was more or less stationary. When Roy Jones knocked him down, he was stationary. This just highlights the fact the opponent doesn't need to be moving around to catch Calzaghe flush and trouble him with clean counters.

If Calzaghe adopted a tactic of hit and move against Toney that would certainly have some success, but the fact is that Calzaghe loves to exchange. Name a fight where he didn't. As I watched him flurry away at Jones on the ropes, I couldn't help imagine what a live, crafty couterpuncher would do to Calzaghe as he wailed away.

 

I don't doubt he is capable of catching Calzaghe cold early on and putting him on his ass, but Joe's chin and durability is more than proven, along with his stamina (the latter of which can't be said for Toney). I think a stoppage is highly unlikely either way given what each fighter brings to the table.

I never said Calzaghe would hurt him. What Jirov lacked that Calzaghe provided has been the main point of most of my posts in this thread, including the one you quoted but refused to acknowledge. Calzaghe's speed, not just of hand, but mainly of foot, which would allow him to box in and out, often switching back and forth between the two at rapid pace, would be the determining factor here.

The closest Toney ever got to a Calzaghe type was Dave Tiberi, and we all saw how that one went.atsch

 

You know that isn't even remotely true. I could easily post the footage to disprove it, but I assume you'll make amends in your next post.

Yes, he was. And he also lost the remainder of the round and was beaten brutally throughout the rest of the fight, so that doesn't really prove anything about ring generalship.

Toney could, and likely would, do just that at times, which is why I think it would be a close affair. But I can't see him dictating the pace and getting set enough to work his usual game against a more versatile fighter with that kind of relentless workrate, speed, and stamina. Not enough to win the majority of the rounds anyway.

Joe was most successful against Hopkins (still one of the very best counter-punchers in the game) when he was doing just that, pressuring and flurrying. You can't consistently counter flurries, especially if you're stationary. It's not as if Toney would be slipping 10 punch combinations and countering at will like he did against Barkley when Calzaghe closed the distance to get on the inside and flurry. He'd land a few counters here and there, probably the harder shots, while Calzaghe outworked him and landed the larger quantity. That would be the story of most of the exchanges. If Calzaghe were to work on the inside for extended periods of time it would start to favor Toney more, but Calzaghe has been proven to be one of the most adaptable fighters in the game, and would likely use his full arsenal to pull this one out. Popping in and out with quick shots and flurries, boxing from long range behind the jab, and when he did get inside I'd expect he'd tie Toney up often and work his crafty clinch game rather than go tit for tat with him, as that would be to Toney'd advantage.

Again, it's Calzaghe's versatility and adaptability that pulls it out for him IMO. You guys are entitled to disagree, but this is a pick I'm confident on and would've been willing to lay down the cash for.

 

This is how I see it. Calzaghe is a bit like Jones, and Toney to me had problems with speedy skilled fighters who throw a lot of punches.

 

Calzaghe is open to right counters, Toney has the best right hand counter in the sport. Calzaghe's offense can be telegraphed and the shoulder roll Hopkins used neutralised most of it making Joe's attacks ineffective, Toney is ofcourse a master of the shoulder roll and in his prime is much more intense than the a 43yo BHOP

Toney doesn't always like a furious workrate or speedy but has dealt with both successfully.

I see it 8-4 Toney or even a late round KO

PS what are the odds on Calzaghe getting dropped by a right hand in the first

 

wow, Pea, that's a lot to deal with there. I'll keep it brief.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=SdAOI3H0t9I

No need to post the link, Pea, here it is. My point is that Hops wasn't exactly confusing JC with movement when he dropped him. He was in the one place and threw a very conventional straight right hand. Secondly, yep JC did win the rest of the round against Jones, because RJJ was completely shot. The only surprise was that he actually managed to knock him down despite that.

Lastly, to keep it brief, I would have been willing to wager a pile myself. Doesn't prove anything though. Peace

 

Never understood why people bring up the Hopkins fight when pointing out why Toney would win.

 

I have no quarrels with the rest of your points. I agree that Jones was shot, I just didn't get Canibus's point about ring generalship in regards to that situation.

As for the above, I think you posted the wrong link, as it didn't show what happened post-KD. Hopkins's accuracy had Calzaghe weary early on, he caught him cold, the same would apply to most fighters, but he was using movement to prevent Calzaghe from getting set after the KD, which made it harder for him to commit without the possibility of being tagged clean again. It's all about efficiency in regards to movement and ring generalship, not just quantity.

 

People seem to forget that the Calzaghe from the Hopkins-fight (one of their few fights they saw from JC only, including the RJJ and the Lacy-fight perhaps) wasn´t at his peak himself, in his prime he had solid power at 168 lbs for example, I would pick Joe by UD (something like 8-4)...

 

100% agreed.

 

I think this is a good breakdown of events.

ive gone back and forth about this match, I see it being a close bout, but unfolding with Calzaghe getting a decision win.

 

I'd give Toney a better chance at 168 against Calzaghe if he was to somehow fight in a similar manner to how he did at 160lbs. He wasn't on the ropes often at middleweight. While he wasn't a mover around the perimeter of the ring like Hopkins for example, he never strictly fought in the pocket either. Far from it as a matter of fact.

Against McCallum he circled and boxed with him at long range for the vast majority of the time over both fights. Toney only relied on fighting up close when he continually moved up in weight. The higher he moved up the more stationary he became. Watch him against Williams at 168lbs and then Jirov at 190lbs, and you'll see a fighter who was content on going to the ropes and being flat-footed to go with it.

Toney certainly has the punch economy and craftyness to cause Calzaghe problems.