Is Jack Dempsey a Top 10 Heavyweight All-Time?

Hmmm, in no order:

Ali - no chance

Foreman - if he can slip inside and work at mid-range to beat Foreman to the punch....I can't see this happening, Foreman throws too much, handles range well with his reach and jab and is too strong and powerful

Tyson - bigger harder hitting version with a tighter defense and faster hands. Tyson by KO

Frazier - Hard pick and would be a corker, both had excellent head movement but could be open to shots. I see this as a 50-50 of 55-45 in terms of Frazier, I see it going late and Frazier pulling through in a close fight

Marciano - similar to Frazier stylistically with perhaps more rounded offensively but not as good a shot slipper and less intense

Lennox Lewis - No chance in hell, firstly he isn't getting past the jab, secondly 1 big shot from Lennox can finnish it if Dempsey gets reckless as he could.

Holyfield - Dempsey has the speed and head movement on Evander, Evander is the better technician, will work his jab, and is stronger. I see this going similar to Holyfield-Tyson, Holyfield late KO

Jack Johnson - Johnson has the right foil of defense and countering that gave Dempsey problems. Also massive strength and an underrated puncher imo. Johnson called Dempsey 'a 4 round fighter'. 60-40 in favour of Johnson

Joe Louis - Louis is the much better compact puncher, Dempsey's getting taken out

Harry Wills - not much is known but a 50-50 at the time.

Larry Holmes - Tunney to the power of 1000, Larry boxes Dempsey's head off

Vitali - Vitali fought with his hands down and his hands are a little slow, I see Dempsey slipping inside to get his best shots off, Vitali leans back and if Dempsey misses he'll just keep throwing. Dempsey wins this, Vitali may go the 12 though

Wladdo - Wlad has the jab, technical ability, strength and power to control the going. Dempsey has the speed, headmovement and combination throwing to make Wladdy pannik. A 50-50

Bowe - SHW who was a great infighter, technically good but an open defense. Can Bowe take Dempsey's shots, how does Dempsey take Bowe's shots? Similar to the Holyfield trilogy with a prime Bowe coming through to win.

Liston - Most people say Liston by destruction, Patterson is Liston's most similar opponent. I think Dempsey's huge speed advantage could edge this in his favour early, but Liston could time him or wear him down. 65-35 in Liston's favour

Tunney - well he schooled him twice, would he do it during his prime? I'm unsure, the style was a nightmare, but how far gone was Dempsey. Tunney and Sharkey were by far his best opponents.

Ike Ibeabuchi - way too big, strong, too good a chin, too much workrate (combined with size) and too technically good, Dempsey's getting worn down.

Tua - perhaps a stylistic nightmare, a bigger puncher, tighter defense, explosive. Dempsey could possibly box to a decision

Charles - have to favour Dempsey here but a Prime Charles may outbox Dempsey similar to Tunney and Charles is a superior operator to Tunney

Walcott - See above

Basically in 20 fights only 7 of them he's a 50-50 or favoute for my money, I'd take those £5 bets

 

Miske was beaten twice each by Greb and Kid Norfolk around the time he fought a draw with and had a loss to Dempsey. The Miske fights were not THAT impressive. Smith was losing to just about everyone by the time Dempsey got to him. Brennan and Morris were ordinary contenders. With the big win over Fulton, and the KO of Levinsky, this is a good run, but one I do not see as exceptional.

 

Per boxrec, from the second half of 1917 through early 1919 before he won the title, a period of less than two years, Dempsey compiled a record of 31-1-3 with 25 knockouts- 17 in the first round- while beating the likes of Fulton, Brennan, Miske, Levinsky, Morris, and other capable fighters. Fulton was considered #1 contender, I believe Miske and Brennan would have been in the top 10 if there had been one at the time, with Morris a borderline-top-10 guy, and the Levinsky win was an impressive showing against an elite light heavyweight. I think that perhaps the most striking aspect of this, though, is that aside from Miske, all of those guys were beaten in brutally emphatic fashion, like they didn't belong in the same ring with Dempsey. If, right now, someone came around and beat four of the top 10, including the #1 contender, blowing two of those guys out in less than 30 seconds, and then demolished the champion, who had never been knocked down, in three rounds, I think it would be pretty quickly spoken of quite favorably in a context of historical accomplishment.

What heavyweight has had a better run in under two years than this one? Comparable streaks would be Louis' run from the beginning of his career until the loss to Schmeling, in which he was 27-0 over a year-and-a-half and beat two former champions and several noteworthy contenders, and Tyson's beginning-of-career 28-0 run from early '85 to late '86 through the Berbick fight- but this one has substantially less depth. I would only really put the Louis run ahead of Dempsey's.

 

What you did not mention is that said champion was 37 years old in a time when most fighters barely have anything left by 32, let alone anything past 35. On top of that he had been sitting on the title for 3 years and took it under similarly unimpressive conditions while being thoroughly outboxed before having the longer breath. As for never being knocked down, it's not like he faced any punchers, or many top opponents at all.

You also failed to mention that Dempsey refused to fight black opponents like Jeannette, Langford and Wills.

As for blowing out the #1 contender in Fulton, Wills has just as much claim to be the #1 contender during that period (and beyond), but he was still avoided.


As for those first round knockouts; impressive, but most of them came against absolute nobodies. And he still lost to a journeyman in Meehan.

So while it's a great run, i think there are some things like the above to put it in perspective. Not fighting black contenders basically means that you're only competing with 50% of the active talent pool.

 

Between 11 and 15.

 

As far as I can tell, Dempsey, over the period you picked, went 31-1-3 with 25 KO's--I counted 18 in the first round. Of those 18, though, 10 were against men with no recorded victories by boxrec (Fred Saddy, Tom Riley, Dan Ketchell, Kid McCarthy, Jim Maguire, Big Jack Hickey, Kid Harris, Kid Henry, Eddie Smith, and Tony Drake). The reason this group was beaten in a "brutally emphatic fashion, as if they didn't belong in the same ring with Dempsey" is because they really didn't belong in the same ring with Dempsey or any other contender. (as an aside, I doubt if the lack of recorded fights is because their extensive records slipped past boxrec--Harry Greb had hundreds of recorded fights after 1917 or so. A quick check shows only 2 opponents had no wins and only a comparitively few had losing records. Greb was fighting worthy opposition--Dempsey was, to a great extent, padding his record).
Did the top men belong in the same ring with Dempsey? Miske certainly did--fighting a draw and losing a close decision in two tries. Meehan more than held his own in those four round fights. Morris went 4 to a decision, fouled out in 6, and seems to have tanked in the third fight to avoid punishment. Gunboat Smith had Dempsey out on his feet in their first fight, but took a hellacious beating in the return. On the whole, Dempsey was impressive, and one could certainly point to him having more fights than almost anyone else in such a short period, but I don't judge he dominated the opposition on his march to the title any more than Liston and Marciano did, as well as Louis and Tyson, and these men certainly met a comparable number of top level opponents.

I think it instructive to compare Dempsey's 1917 to 1919 run (31-1-3, 25 KO's) with the record of Fred Fulton between the Dempsey fight in 1918 and the Miske fight in 1922, both 1 round KO losses. Over that four year span, Fulton went 34-1-2 with 28 KO's, beating Meehan, Langford, Moran, Cowler, Porky Flynn, Madden, Gunboat Smith, Morris, Homer Smith, and Roper. It all looks most impressive, but Fulton was blown away easily not only by Dempsey and Miske, but by Wills in 1920. Impressive statistics does not automatically translate to some sort of historical greatness.

 

Top 10 easy and probably higher. I truly believe he would have put Joe Louis on ice and probably in the hospital resulting from a savage beating. Control freak Lennox Lewis would also be toast, knowing his less than reliable chin. At some point, Lennox would look for rest and mercy and find none. I can see Jack totally putting Lennox back on his heels with an unrelenting, two fisted attack.

 

The young, fresh Jack Dempsey was unapproachable, but he didn't fight much. Although this will be unpopular, films of Dempsey are comparable to films of Tyson in terms of devastating power. I'm not comparing those two guys overall though.

I put Dempsey in the top ten, but not the top five. To be in the top five he would have to be better than:

Ali
Louis
Jack Johnson
Marciano (I know, I know, but he never lost)
Tunney (who plainly owned his ass)
Larry Holmes (I know this makes six, but I'll get hell over the Marciano pick)

 

Nice point about Louis. I'm not sure Lennox belongs in the conversation really...

I wonder what he would have done against someone like Foreman. I know Willard was big, but so was Carnera if you know what I mean. :yep

 

What makes you say that?

 

About 15.. Anyone who has him in the 5 range is just a big fan of his

 

Earth to Janitor,

How come Dempsey ever lost a fight, hell, in your list he is unbeatable but how come it never worked out like that in real life ?

I don't think you have ever been in a ring, even casually because the first thing you would notice is that gloves have a profound effect on punching power . Put those wintermittens of your beloved old timers on the more modern elite fighters and you will get sick to your stomach because of the violent ko's you will witness.

Anyway , I would make Dempsey a favor to beat Frazier, Patterson, possible even Louis and Marciano , Liston for sure but then the train stops rapidly. Ali, Foreman, Holmes,Tyson, Holyfield and Bowe.....extremely unlikely.......for example, he WILL get hit flush by Tyson while recklessly racing in and that will be that, he ain't taking a shot from Mike flush, no way no how.LOL, he was knocked down by bar room brawlers.........except Mike is the exact opposit of that.