The recent phenomenon of not having an elite heavyweight who is a natural midleweight

didnt darchinyan challenge jermain taylor?:think




but i agree the heavy's are becoming very heavy and not just big and fat but actually in shape.

but saying that, valuev was getting outpointed by gerald nobles who was a light heavy in the ams back in the day

chris byrd was taking on MUCH bigger guys and yet he was able to utterly confuse and out box slower less mobile and unconditioned 230+

1970's jimmy ellis was a middlewieght if not a light middleweight and he was trading and exchanging punches and getting the best of some of the best fighters of the generation with ali, frazier,patterson and quarry...and not looking that bad in the process.


toney did better than some people are claiming. also take note that there was no cruiserweight back in the day so his cruiser days count aswell.




in honesty the cruiser isnt serving wat it was meant for...orignially for 174 pounders who couldnt make wieght and just smaller heavy's in general.

cooper,quarry,patterson,ellis (as mentioned)

but now it is getting populated by guys who are a heavyweight already.

side note should cruiser go back to 190?:think

 

My question is, how many of the above were ACTUAL middleweights when they fought heavyweights?

 

Yes, and according to that logic, Jimmy Wilde was better than Lennox Lewis.

 

But he was about 200 lbs when he did that, bigger than both Patterson and Quarry. And when you see how very lean he was at even 190, it's easy to understand why his MW record isn't very good. He must have been an absolute reed.

 

No one is really talking about natural middleweights, just guys who could make the middleweight limit and be world class in that division, if that was where the money was. Most of the guys mentioned if not all could do this, if they were dedicated enough to training and trained down in weight to make that weight.

In all honesty, if there were proper (say 6) weight divisions, one champion, fight to the finish fights, and if a world title (in the lower divisions) was the best way to make money, i think that most of those guys could fight at middleweight for most of their carreeer.

 

It is debatable with the others, but you surely can t think that the Toney who fights at heavyweight is a better fight than the one that fought at middleweight or light heavyweight?

 

ok it was a slight misinterpetation of the truth.

he was very young and had been boxing ever since he was 11 so he was always in shape.
hearns wasnt "struggling" with wieght but he was a complete bean of a man. i still believe ever since he started training with dundee he just became bigger. also going against the hurricane would force you to go up in wieght any day.




anyone talking about roy jones?

i know ruiz wasnt really a challenge but still.

 

More like head to knee!

 

No, i don't think so. Toney, Jones, Ellis, Byrd et al would be too vulnerable too getting hurt, shoved around and not respected when at 160lbs. Why do you think THEY choose to bulk up?

 

In the case of Toney, i dont think he chooses to bulk up to his current weight, so much as he tries to trim down, but is unable to.

It really is a shame that this question can never be answered because of modern attitudes. I know i am in the minority, but a Bernard Hopkins vs James Toney fight would give us so much to argue about historical fighters and the big weight question (there is no doubt that size helps, the question is how much). Toney and Hopkins are similar ages, Similar abilities and widely different in weight. I think that such a match makes sense for both fighters and should be signed. Toney v Jones Jr II is another which would be interesting also, if only to compare the different performances with that of their primes.

 

Hopkins would easily beat Toney today, 40lbs weight difference or not. But that's purely because Toney is **** at this moment. Feet stuck in the mud, no workrate, fewer body movement. He should've lost a convincing decision to Oquendo for Christ' sake.

And Hopkins i think would've always beaten Toney.


Just because older fighters COULDN'T bulk up, doesn't mean they were doing the best thing. From the moment they could, they did. They are the one taking punches in there. You gotta respect their opinion in that regard. And it's not like there's a split minority who doesn't - ALL of them bulk up when stepping up in weight. You'd simply not going to compete with skilled, big heavyweights when you weigh less than 190lbs.

 

This I would agree with. But how then, do you think Hopkins would Go against Oquendo, Peter or Rahman? Personally I think he is probably getting too old anyway, but in his prime, it is not out of the question that he could beat these three, given what Toney has done. There is no proof that Toney is the only one who can take the punches, just because he has put on the extra weight.

Another interesting match would be to see Chris Byrd rematch against the light heavy who beat him recently, but at the heavyweight weight. Conventional thinking says he would do better and to be honest, i think that he would do better (could he do any worse?) at light heavy, but it would be interesting to compare his performances at the two weights. Particularly since he will have aged more if he comes in at heavy.

All these types of fights are obviously not going to happen, but i do think that they would be interesting.