Part I: Classic's Consensus P4P Top 10 Inclusions

What's the dislike for Roy Jones Jr. I'm picking up here? The man was extraordinary. Like every fighter, there was a time limit on his greatness, and the clock ran out on him about the same time it runs out on a lot of all-time greats. But during his prime he was the baffler, making outstanding opponents look stuck in the mud, at times even stupid. He defeated Toney, Hopkins, and Hill, among others. Like many past greats he was able to compete from middleweight to heavyweight, bouncing weights the way Moore did. Just because he was wrecked twice at the end of his career is no reason to revise the entire history of his career and downgrade him.

 

Ray Leonard is being ranked too highly by many. He shouldn't be a candidate for top ten. He was beaten by a lightweight. Yes, it was Duran, and there is no shame in that, but you have to ask yourself, would a welterweight of all-time pound-for-pound status lose to any lightweight? Would Robinson lose to Duran?

There are other reasons. Leonard's win over Hearns had more to do with Hearns than Leonard. Same thing with Leonard's win over Duran in the rematch. Had Leonard steamrolled Duran in the rematch that would have helped. Had Leonard rematched Hearns immediately and steamrolled him that would have helped, too. Leonard's win over the shot Hagler was undeserved. He looked bad in the Hearns rematch, the rubber match with Duran was a real stinker, and he was overwhelmed by Terry Norris (although he was in his mid-30s by that point so we can cut him some slack).

Leonard was a outstanding boxer, but not top ten all-time material.

 

WARNING: Subject to extensive extreme revision and persuation. It will surprise nobody that I can't go with anybody from the 12 round era. I'd have to rate those of the 12 round era separately.

1) Robby (I can't be eclectic here. Boring, but he's the man. What Armstrong emphatically proclaimed about his superiority carries perhaps disproportionate weight with me. Plus, I've seen 24 minutes of his schooling of Fusari at 147, something everybody here should have an opportunity to study and enjoy.)

2) Duranimal (In any given second, I could switch him with my number three. I rate Montreal Duran over New Orleans SRL, and feel that Montreal Duran always would have won it on the cards after ten rounds. Even in New Orleans, Ray wasn't running away with the scoring.)

3) Greb (A past prime Harry handled Walker fairly decisively. Even Mickey conceded that Greb beat him. This has huge P4P ramifications for me.)

4) Langford (Since he retired after 1920. We're truly blessed to have the peak Sam on film versus Jim Flynn.)

5) Ross. (Good to see Barney well represented on this thread. I've always been impressed with the footage of a peak Ross with Billy Petrolle over 15. Imagine THAT version of Ross versus Hank!)

6) Canzi (Past his best, he handled Ambers better than Armstrong did, when Tony won his final title.)

7) Hank

8) Pep

9) Ezz

10) Burley (Only his footage in the Oakland Billy Smith rematch has come to light, but at 28 he was close to his prime then.)


I wonder how Walker would have done if Doc Kearns had taken away his cigarrettes. Ditto if Locche had managed to kick the habit. (Not only would Nicolino probably still be alive, he might still be competing. Also, smoking is not good for facial skin. That may have cost him his rematch with Cervantes.) Ditto Monzon. (It may not have mattered with Carlos, but imagine a chain smoker as a champion today!)

This is merely a starting point. Gimme a chance to sleep on it, and I might come up with an entirely different looking list.

 

From what I have read, both in this thread and previous articles it seems that there are, rightly, four 100% locks for any objective top 10. In addition to these 4, there are 2 guys who are maybe just short of 'lock' status on ESB. Roberto Duran and Ezzard Charles. For me, and many on here they are nailed on top 10 guys. Indeed, I can't envisage Duran outside my top 5, and probably makes my #3.

I am beginning to wonder, does the ESB classic board overrate Ezzard Charles? Looking at other ratings he seems woefully underrated, but is the reality that he does not belong in consideration for 'lock' status and therefore top five consideration?

Anyway, here are what I believe are ESB 'locks' and my personal top 6 fighters of all time (who's positioning within that changes though I'd probably go Robinson, Greb, Duran, Langford, Armstrong, Charles; though I sense I often underrate Hank):
Locks:
Greb
Langford
Robinson
Armstrong
Near Locks

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Following on from theses, here are a few lists from the big wide world that conflict somewhat with ESB's love for Charles.

It seems HWs get too much recognition (indeed of the 5 guys who have won RING's fighter of the year 3 times or more ALL are HWs), with big shouts (naturally) for Ali and Louis in addition to Marciano, Johnson and Dempsey for the top 10. Louis and Ali seems reasonable, but Marciano and Dempsey?!
It seems Pep and Leonard are close to 'locks' elsewhere, and surely are very strong contenders here on ESB. Now if we could just do something about the overrated SR Leonard keep popping up...

I have highlighted the relevant fighters, from the list above:

IBRO:
1 Robinson
2 Greb
3 Armstrong
4 Ali(Tie)
4 Louis(Tie)
6 Langford
7

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8 Leonard
9 Pep
10 Fitzsimmons (

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#12)

RING 1922-2002:
1 Robinson
2 Armstrong
3 Ali
4 Louis
5

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6 Pep
7 Greb
8 Leonard(B)
9 Leonard (SR)
10 Whitaker (

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#13, Langford n/a)

RING GREATEST FIGHTERS OF THE 20th CENTURY (1999):
1 Ali
2 Louis
3 Robinson
4 Armstrong
5 Johnson
6 Dempsey
7 Leonard(B)
8 Greb
9 Marciano
10 Moore (

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#11,

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& Langford not in top20)

BERT SUGAR (2006):
1 Robinson
2 Armstrong
3 Pep
4 Louis
5 Greb
6 Leonard(B)
7 Ali
8

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9 Dempsey
10 Johnson (Langford #16,

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#24)

BERT SUGAR (1984):
1 Robinson
2 Armstrong
3 Greb
4 Dempsey
5 Leonard (B)
6 Louis
7 Walker
8 Langford
9 Canzoneri
10 Ali (

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#17,

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#31)


NAT FLEISCHER:
HW: Jack Johnson
LHW: Kid McCoy
MW: Stan Ketchel
WW: Joe Walcott
LW: Joe Gans
FW: Terry McGovern
BW: George Dixon
Fly: Jimmy Wilde

Fleischer Best All-Around Fighter:
1 Jack Johnson
2 Jack Dempsey
3 Joe Louis

ESPN (2007):
1 Robinson
2 Ali
3 Armstrong
4 Louis
5 Pep
6

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7 Leonard(B)
8 Johnson
9 Dempsey
10 Langford (Greb #13,

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#27)

OBSERVER (UK Broadsheet, 2000):
1 Ali
2 Robinson
3 Louis
4 Wilde
5 Leonard(B)
6 Moore
7 Johnson
8 Leonard (SR)
9 Dempsey
10 Armstrong

Angelo Dundee:
"I don’t like to do that (rate the all-time greats). It’s unfair. The best. Hypothetically, Ray Robinson, how can you fault him? He was incredible. So was Jack Johnson."

GIL CLANCY:
1 Pep
2 Robinson
3 Louis
4 Moore
5 Ali
6 Marciano
7 Greb
8

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9 Leonard(SR)
10 Harold Johsnon

LOU DUVA:
1 Robinson
2 Louis
3 Marciano
4 Ali
5 Saddler
6 Pep
7 Giardello
8 LaMotta
9 Leonard(SR)
10 Whitaker

 

"mainstream appeal" = I can put Ali where I like. And Ray Leonard. I don't like HWs in the top 10. Certainly, any more than 1 is ridiculous.

How do you feel about Charles's low (relatively) placing in many lists?

 

Yes, but I wouldn't put Tunney in the top ten, either, and that's part of my point. It's clearly not shameful that Tunney lost to Greb. I agree with you here. Greb was, by all accounts, an amazing fighter. I have him in my top 10! It's not shameful that Leonard lost to Duran. He put up a hell of a fight, and he beat him twice after that. But by losing that first fight, the fight where all their powers were on display, Leonard is precluded from the top 10 all-time great status because, well, I believe a welterweight worthy of that lofty designation would not lose to any lightweight with a world title on the line. That's just my view, and I appreciate your point of view.

 

Definitely Tommy. I'm somewhat less certain about Joe, as good as he was against larger opposition.:think (Loughran could easily hit my top ten, depending on my mood of the moment.)