Ive been away for a while. I have lost a lot of interest in boxing with all the PPV crap and the lack of talent. As far as Lewis, I felt he won the Vitali fight, and I think he did exactly what needed to be done to face a fighter that was taller and had the awkward style of Vitali. He knew he would eventually break Vitali down, and he needed to keep pressing the fight. That being said, you cant ever compare Vitali who at that time was considered to be at his peak, better than Tyson or Bowe, or Holyfield at their respective peaks. Vitali is a good solid fighter, but nothing special, and he is fighting in an era of total garbage talent. I wouldnt call his recent resume domination over the division either, he hasnt been an active fighter.
Dont know too much about Louis comp, but I know people are generally bigger and stronger now with technology in diet and exercise. They may have been big but were they equal in size and strength? Were talking about Lewis at 240 ripped.
I think while the old times have a lot of sentimental value, a natural beauty and a setting that is very hard to emulate, Lewis (and maybe the Klits) would stand a very good chance of winning fights with the old school elite fighters, maybe even dominating some. The arguments have been said above - advances in sports/nutrition science, overwhelming increase in size. In the Ali vs Patterson fight Ali weight in at around 218 and Patterson at (!)188. Honestly I can not imagine a Pac vs DLH scenario.
Jack Dempsey got knocked out in the first round before he won the title. Jack Johnson got stopped twice before he beat Burns. But these losses are forgotten now when we think of their careers. Carlos Monzon had some losses early in his career. With Lewis, people hold his losses against him. Rather than understand how those losses strengthened and made him a greater and more complete and experienced mature champion. To overcome losses like that as Lewis did, to win the rematches as he did, truly affirm what a special champion Lennox Lewis was at his best. It's the same thing with Wladimir, his losses have helped to form him into the incredible unbeatable machine he is now. Like a blessing in disguise.
Comparison between eras is certainly not science. More (generally the youngest or newest "afficionados") are swayed that today's taller/heavier fighters would easily be competitive with the best of yesterday. The advantages of diet, technology, standard of living, sport's science, medicine, equipment, etc., etc., are all factors which affect one's conclusions but are impossible to apportion or quantify whether placing current fighters in yesterday's environment or the reverse. Which way are you guys looking at the comparison? Are you "time machining" today's fighters back to the past or altering the past great by attributing some bump from the more favorable environment of today? And, while it is easy to simplify and envision a 6'7" heavyweight of today having an extreme size advantage over a 6'0" fighter from the past what about the linear contribution of what came first? [For clarity, I recognize that fighting has been around forever.] In my case (descriptively), it began in the late-60s (watching all of the replayed fights of the '30s - '50s - Louis & Marciano, in particular) and the first fight I saw in real-time (closed-circuit projection screen) was Ali/Frazier I in '71. Starting from this time vantage point, it was (seemingly) clear that Clay/Ali was the antecedent (though in fact he may not have been to someone even older) for what was later seen in Sugar Ray Leonard, Howard Davis, Meldrick Taylor, Roy Jones, Jr., Shane Mosley, Bowe, Lennox Lewis, just a multitude of names (you can add a dozen more of your own). While it is certainly evident that even if Ali had never (been born) become a boxer there would likely have been the same type of developments that I attribute to his specific influence. Still, one wonders how you can contemplate a Lennox Lewis without an Ali being available for his study and pugilistic education? A bit of the chicken and the egg I suppose. It seems that the comparison between eras becomes even cloudier when you attempt to generously reward today's fighters for what they are and not take into account that the prior generation's fighters are the shoulders they are standing upon so as to not have to "reinvent the wheel" so to speak (ignore my confused mixed metaphors or whatever).
Again, there is a cloud of controversy over the legitimacy of this event. Joe Choynski is in the IBHOF largely because of his third round knockout win over Johnson, so that is hardly a forgotten defeat. Together in jail afterwards, Choynski taught Lil' Artha' many tricks of the trade which eventually helped him gain the championship. This is because those defeats did not occur when he was at an embryonic stage of his boxing, but was the matured world champion in full career when he got dethroned. Ali went through 19 straight title defenses as champion before Leon Spinks finally dethroned him. Larry Holmes was the first undefeated boxer to win 20 consecutive title defenses over eight consecutive calendar years. Joe Louis defended 25 times without getting dethroned. These are amazing winning streaks. Lewis first lost the title after just three defenses in under a year and a half. The second time he lost it was after nine defenses in four years, an impressive streak, but not in the ballpark of what Louis, Ali and Holmes achieved.
What is up with Tysonlewisbook geezer? Lewis not the G.O.AT. Deal with it. Dissing on Ali, criticising him for his past prime performances, even though he won most of them? Come on man, Lewis had problems with guys who could jab with him, Bruno, Mercer, Rahman early rounds, none of them are Ali. How can you claim Lewis is smarter than Muhammad? When Lewis was fighting, no-one even claimed that he was better than Ali, forget what Foreman said, we all know Foreman was just being graceful. Lewis got KO'd by two c-list guys, not once, but twice while he was champion, that never happened to Ali. Two right hand shots that landed once. Would Ali need two bites at the cherry to beat McCall or Rahman? Norton was better than McCall or Rahman, is just that Norton fought in a much tougher era when there was one champ. McCall and Rahman only became champs because they beat Lewis. And you bring that Ali had his jaw broke by Norton. So? He was out of shape and still went 12 rounds he was not KO'd. Lets see Lewis fight 12 rounds with a broken jaw. In fact, lets see Lewis win a fight when he has been dropped. Bringing up the Cooper fight, are you crazy? He won. He was a 21 year old 202 pounds skinny guy who took Henry lightly, plus he travelled to Wembley in front of 45,000. Lewis got KO'd man, i like Lewis but for you to say he was "Smarter" or "Classier" than Ali is damm right stupid. Ali is the greatest sportsman ever, because he was the total package, one of the most recognised men in history who has done more for this sport than Lewis ever has. How old are you? Where were you when Lewis, a unmotivated fat Lewis got KO'd by Rahman? Were you laughing then? Were you claiming Lewis was the G.O.A.T? Ali confirmed his greatness by beatinng Liston, Frazier and Foreman. Who did Lewis beat that gives credibilty to your arguement that he's G.O.AT? All you talk about is size and some skill for your reasoning. Ali was no 5'10" 184 pound Marciano with rudiamentary skills, that is when Lewis size would come into it. Lewis was outsped by Shannon Briggs for two rounds before he ran out of gas. Briggs ain't nowhere near the speed of Ali, or has the chin of Ali. Mercer was heavier than Ali but was not "smarter" "Classier" "Faster" or anything but some people think he beat Lewis, he even showed a better jab. Lewis didn't even have the best jab of his era or even the last 25-30 years, Larry Holmes's jab was vastly better. Lewis wasn't the best fighter of his own era, Holyfield takes that title. Evander beat far better dudes. Can you imagine the shot 2002 Tyson against a peak Holmes? That jab would have looked far better than Lewis who pawed for 4-5 rounds with it until he knew Mike was done. Lewis fought a 210 pound Mavrovic who he couldn't drop or KO, who went 12. Why was Lewis's size and weight not a factor? Shouldn't he destroy that guy? Was that guy Ali?
1. Lewis 2. Ali 3. Louis 4. Holmes 5. Foreman just my opinion, in term of opponents Ali obviously faced the tougher, but I think prime Lewis around the Tyson fight would have beaten any heavyweight, he was too smart with the jab and his right hand was lethal Altho, I do think Big George with his power in his prime before the ali fight would have caused big problems for Lewis with his power
The tyson Lewis beat was ruined by Holyfield 5 years prior to that fight and even in 1997 he wasn't nowhere near the 1988 peak version. tyson 1988 v 2002 lewis. be a great fight and many would pick tyson to win by early KO cuz of his 2 early losses by KO.
1. Ali 2. Louis 3. Liston 4. Holmes 5. Foreman These 5 would defeat Lewis at least 2/3 fights. Ali wins every time. The rest of my top 10 list... 6. Lennox Lewis 7. Jack Dempsey 8. Evander Holyfield 9. Rocky Marciano 10. Joe Frazier I also think that prime Holyfield would outwork and outpoint Lewis. I still rate Lewis higher than Holyfield because Lewis would do better H2H against other ATGs. When I rank fighters, I go by H2H and track record. Normally I give a little bit more weight to H2H because it's unfair that some fighters got to face opponents who were meant or them while others did not.
If Lewis was the G.O.AT. why are most of the matchups people dream of are Lewis v Holmes 81 or Bowe or Lewis v Tyson pre melt down or Evander of 1990-1993? Because these guys set the standard for the 80's and early 90's before Lewis was even on the scene. They were also great Heavyweights. We don't even know for sure if Lewis could beat those guys who were near or in his own era. He never fought the versions of those i mentioned. He fought a 36-37 Evander, a 35 year old Tyson, a 36 year old Mercer who a 42 year old Holmes ***** slapped (and looked better against). I think Ali is the Greatest, thats my opinion, with Joe Louie next to him, but at least i have Joe Louis and Ali's entire career and fighters to back up my opinon. What is most people's back up of Lewis? Size, strength, skill. Yes, those things might work against slower unskilled guys. But we are talking about Ali. Joe Louis whatever they say was a greater Heavy than Lewis, forget about size, if you take size out of the equation, Joe is a better fighter who made 25 defences or near 12 years and only lost to an ex champ (pre peak after being battered for 12 rounds), a current champ while shot (Ezzard Charles) and at 37 got stopped against a young hungry Marciano who would go on to be a ATG. Not bad, Louis and Ali are 1 & 2 interchangable. Joe Louis never lost to a McCall or Rahman. Both of those men lose to joe in my eyes despite their advantages. Lewis was not even the greatest heavyweight the last 30 years years, we had Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe who were Champions pre Lewis. Far more exciting than Lewis where every fight was an event pretty much. They were all Undisputed (Holmes never unified but they was no doubt from 1980 to 1985 he was the linear champion). Lewis won the WBC vacant title (TWICE) and never beat a reigning champ to get it (yes Bowe was a disgrace for that and McCall was a cry baby). He was never recognised as the main heavyweight of the world until 1999 (when he was 34), which was the first time he truly beat a reigning champion which was a 37 year old shopworn Evander. He never had a FOTC or RITJ or Thrilla, fights the entire world cared for. Remember Africa when Ali was there? Remember South Africa when Lewis was there? No one really got excited. I know he was only fighting Rahman, but Ali could fight Al Blue Lewis in Ireland or Bugner in Asia and it would draw more excitement. Ali won his titles by beating reigning Undisputed champs (the first two guys were favoured to beat him). Even while he was shot to bits he regained his title against Leon Spinks (yes Ali should not of lost the first time against a novice, but the Ali that fought Spinks the first time was the worst version of Ali until the Holmes fight). Ali never lost his title legit until he was 36, fat, untrained against a 24 year old hungry guy in a fight were Ali showed his champ heart again, that 15th round Ali was shot the bits but tried as hard as hell to KO Spinks at all costs to hold on to his title. Lewis got KO'd twice. He never lost by decision or went all out to avoid defeat when the odds were against him in later rounds because he was never in that position in those fights, he just got KO'd. Remember the shot Ali v SHAVERS in rounds 14 and 15? That's a shot Ali. Mercer was the only guy that Lewis beat that looked like they could beat him over the stretch. And Mercer is no Liston, Frazier or Foreman.
I would say 2nd or 3rd best..........if he woulda beat prime tyson and holy there could be a case for 1st.....but both guys were past it....especially tyson.//////so i say 2nd or 3rd best.
You only have a low post count PrivateJoker but welcome to the Classic Forum, your input is very much appreciated :good
If Lewis had beaten Tyson, Holyfield and Bowe when they were in or near their primes, his three best wins would more or less equal Ali's. But Ali would still have about 20 more wins against ranked opposition - many of which came after a long lay-off, something that Lewis never had to contend with. Lewis would still also have his two KO defeats, an indignity Ali never suffered (I don't think his TKO against Holmes is comparable). That gives a clue as to the gulf between their resumes.
Some people only say Lewis is G.O.AT. based just on size and strength, Lewis was not the most skillful heavyweight of all time. Even Jersey Joe Walcott looks more skillful on black and white than Lewis in colour. That uppercut on Charles is on par with Lewis's KO of Rahman. Of course i favor Lewis over Walcott, but i am talking about skills and natural ability. He is the greatest Super-Heavyweight. But the Super-Heavyweight Divison does not exist, so he goes down the picking order of great champions, but Lennox is up there, don't get me wrong, he just ain't greater than Joe Louis or Ali.