Thanks McVey. That is what meant all along. When i mean natural ability, i mean SKILLS. Not power or chin. There's been alot of non-greats who had no skills what so ever, who had power and the ability to take punishment. Did Mayweather have more natural ability than Castillo? I think yes. Castillo had a cast-iron jaw and good power, he has these over Floyd, but does he have Mayweather's natural gifts? Oliver McCall and Tex Cobb have better chin than Johnson, but are they anywhere near his level? NO. Because they lack his skills, speed, range, defensive ability. That's true scientific boxing. Ask Lennox Lewis (who called himself a Pugilist specialist), who believed in the science of the sport, or any boxing historian who had more natural ability between Johnson and Baer. Reg Gutteridge R.I.P. also said Johnson was the greatest defensive Heavyweight in history before Ali came along and had more natural skills than any guy until the late 50's. I agree with Reg and people who actually saw Baer in the flesh and the other guys you mentioned.
Late 1950s? whats that supposed to mean. There werent any talented heavyweights pre April 27 1956? LOL
I should think it means that in Gutteridge's opinion Jack Johnson had more natural skill than any heayweight up to the late 1950's.I would agree with him actually.In fact I would extend it to the middle 60's
"Late 1950s? whats that supposed to mean. There werent any talented heavyweights pre April 27 1956? LOL." I never said talented, i said Natural ability in the Heavyweight division. I think Jersey Joe Walcott (cuteness and trickery) is the closer to Johnson that any Heavyweight at that point in Heavyweight history.
I believe I was the only one who actually defined what he was talking about. What about jabs, feints and parrying is "natural" prey tell? Strength, speed, resistance to punches, et. al... these things are natural and not groomed. Of course, Johnson was far more skilled than Baer. I wrote as much in my initial post. But give me either fighter in nascent form as the natural clay to work with and develop and some intriguing choices must be made between the two. So, semantics over, I again am trying to find a Johnson contemporary who I can justify as being both faster and carrying more clout at heavyweight than Patterson. There simply is no sustainable proof such a fighter existed in Johnson's era, though maybe Chonyski comes close.
Well I'm sorry your definition was rather lacking. You could work with Maxie till doomsday ,he would never have the defence ,judgement of distance,anticipation ,footwork,balance ,timing ,reflexes etc of Jack Johnson. His was god given ,ie natural talent. Baer had god given physical gifts ,in a terrific physique an over hand right that could knock down a horse ,and a chin that could absorb the punch of a gorilla.He had lousy footwork, crude defence , no jab ,and blocked punches with his chin.
I do. A prime Patterson would rate as Johnson best win, since he did not beat prime versions of Langford, jeffires, Jeanette, or McVey. It would be intersting to see if Patterson power could turn the tides, or if Johnson could clinch and uppercut his way to victory. Hard fight to call.
So, boxing footwork and defense are natural, innate abilities? And to think I had to go to a gym to acquire a bit of them. You learn something new everyday.
Jeannette was beaten by Johnson 3 times in 1906 he was 27 years old and was coming off an 8 round ko of a 52 fight Langford. Why am I not surprised by this post?
It's one of the reasons i can see Jack Johnson beating a prime Joe Louis. Jersey Joe Walcott was the only other Heavyweight in history comparable to Johnson and he gave Louis fits despite Louis being past his prime. Louis had never fought anyone as tricky, cute or crafty as Jersey Joe Walcott. Look at the film, Louis looked confused when he fought Jersey Joe both times.
Mendoza. "A prime Patterson would rate as Johnson best win, since he did not beat prime versions." No he would not. Johnson was bigger than Patterson and fought men bigger and tougher than Patterson, PATTERSON had speed and power (but he was mentally weaker). Johnson fought bigger punchers with better chins that could take what he dished out better. Jeffries would kill Patterson, Patterson did not have a great chin or could escape from getting hit for 15-20 rounds v even an old Jeffries in that heat. The past it Jeffries that Johnson fought still took a sustained 15 round beating before going down, he still had a better chin than Patterson and more power. "Langford, jeffires, Jeanette, or McVey." These versions could probably beat Patterson. Joe Maxim beat Patterson, Ingo beat Patterson. Langford, Jeffries, Jeanette and McVey are better Heavyweights than Maxim or Ingo (down 7 times in round 3). When Patterson fought a Great black Heavyweight he was smashed in one round (twice).
Max Baers natural abilities were blunt force trauma and ungodly durability. While he was verry impresive in these respects I would not say that he was a better raw talent than Johnson when you consider speed, reflexes, and ability to judge distances, all of which are god given to some extent. Max Baer probably had a better natural talent for screwing actreses as well.
I could certainly see some of Johnsons victims switching out the lights on Patterson. McVea arguably had one of the hardest left hooks of all time and Sam Langford could knock out darn near anybody. Imposible to say how much Jeffries had left but the last thing to leave a fighter is his power. Where Patterson might bring something new to the table is that Johnson probably hadnt faced a heavyweight puncher with such fast hands. This could plausibly thow him off his game a bit.