The winner of the Thriller in Manila

Unlike 67 Ali vs 71 Frazier.

Makes a change from the Ali bias we've all been spoonfed down the years don't you think?*









* I know your answer's 'no', so I shouldn't have asked. :yep

 

When the Manilla documentary came out I didn't watch it, as I thought it'd be the same old stuff i've heard a million times. When I heard it was from Joe's perspective (finally) I tuned in when it was repeated.

Remember the Ring's 20th anniversary issue of the Fight of the Century. The cover? Ali landing and Joe covering up. What a surprise, they can't even give Joe that one.

 

Hmm, sounds like more **** licking from Norman, he clung to Ali like a mollusc (as Mark Kram used to say).

 

But Kram spent more time with Ali over the years than Mailer, through his work. Ghosts of Manila is more accurate than anything ever written about Ali (even though the dark side of everybody could be painted like that). Norman was a great writer when he wasn't talking about himself or aligning himself with Ali.

 

I totally disagree. Some of Mailer's novels are excellent. The Naked and The Dead, An American Dream and The Executioner's Song are really good. His Vietnam/political writings are top notch too.

 

"I totally disagree". That cam out all wrong. I meant to say "yeah, he can be a bore" but he wrote some great stuff. :yep

 

****in hell, you`ve had a **** of a hardon for me these past 48 hrs or so Conteh :rofl

 

My opinion on who won TTIM?

My opinion on who REALLY won?

Nobody.

Ali and Frazier, they both lost. That figth took too much from them permanently :-(

 

:good

 

You can't be serious.

 

Considering how Ali had defended his title since regaining it, the revisionist notion of his voluntarily conceding it before answering the final bell in Manila is absurd, particularly against an obviously vision impaired target gorging on his own blood.

While on his knee in the ring immediately after it ended, Ali told Don Dunphy on camera for all the world to see and hear that round ten was when he had doubts about being able to prevail. At the time, nothing suggested that he expressed wanting to quit after 14.

1975 was one of the most demanding years any heavyweight champion ever successfully defended the title through. In avenging his referee ruled knockdown at the hands of Wepner, he pridefully exerted himself tremendously during the championship rounds when that wasn't necessary to win, extending his stamina to the limit and collapsing to the deck after just barely pulling out the knockout win in a situation where he would have otherwise cruised to a lopsided decision. (Chuck was expected to lose badly in a bloody stoppage beforehand. Neither that or an easy points win would have benefited Ali as much as the surprising outcome which did result in Cleveland.)

Lyle exposed Muhammad to a level of punching power that he didn't have to worry about in dealing with Wepner and Bugner. Ron also put Ali in the unusual position of having to come from behind in the later rounds. Superior endurance and sustained power won out, as Muhammad turned things around with a single jolting right (similar to the one which deposed Foreman) followed by a blizzard of 45 unanswered punches from post to post to post. He had plenty left in the tank.

By the way, Ali-Lyle was no premature stoppage. With 1:15 left to go in round eight (the round in which Muhammad had predicted he'd finish Ron), Cosell noted how much more heavily Lyle was perspiring than Ali. For all his flaws, Howard could occasionally relate a timely and telling live first hand observation, and events soon proved this to be a sign that the challenger was beginning to crack. (Cosell sometimes provided commentary for prerecorded fights. His call of the FOTC obviously sounds like it was choreographed after the fact, but Ali-Lyle was live on ABC.)

When Ron was stunned by Jerry Quarry's hook in round eight of his first defeat, that happened in the closing seconds, and Lyle did begin fighting back right before the bell. Muhammad's right knocked Ron silly a mere 25 seconds into round 11, and referee Ferd Hernandez called a halt with nearly two minutes left and no sign of return fire from the foundering challenger. Occasionally, it's been suggested that Ali gestured to Hernandez to stop it because he was worried about getting punched out, ignoring the fact that Muhammad also did this with Ellis, and in the Quarry rematch.

Joe Bugner's stated intention before challenging him in the scorching heat and humidity of Kuala Lumpur was to make the champion do most of the work, a decision which did Frazier no favors. Despite Bugner's lack of resistance, Ali didn't do just enough to get by, but virtually pitched a shutout and was dancing at the end, maintaining a fairly brisk pace throughout.

After taking all that into account, it should be obvious that he was far too battle hardened to be worn into submission by the end of Manila. Unlike the FOTC, he didn't rush into this one prematurely, but was competitively extended and prepared.