When exactly was Tyson's prime?

This is clearly a lost cause.....atsch

 

A debate can be made for Tyson's prime being carried through the 1991 & a case can be made for his prime having passed by that time!

However, Moorer would have been blown away within a round, I'm confident of that! Moorer moved up from LHW where he was a dominant force, but at HW & against a guy like Tyson, it would have been Goodnight for Moorer!

While the performances against Biggs, Spinks & Holmes are generally considered to be the peak Tyson, I think his KO demolition job on Alex Stewart is vastly underrated! Stewart gave Holyfiedl big problems in Sept 1989! Tyson just blew Alex away, on him straight away!

 

I think the Biggs fight was his best performance, always in control of the fight and he could've stopped Biggs earlier, but at the same time it was a discilplined, controlled, yet devestating destruction. Great conbinations/bodywork, terrific lefthand for the first knockdown and another to finish it. Complete performance.

 

Yes on paper it was the best win of his career, better than Page, because Bruno was more dangerous and a better fighter than Page, who lost his title in his first defense to Tubbs, who lost it to WItherspoon who was ko'd by Smith in 1. Again my point that all these fighters are about on the same par.

 

Just answer one simple question.

Who among the lost generation fought the largest number of quality opponents?

 

I'm a big fan of that performance too, it's kinda ironic that we only got that because Tyson wanted to really break Biggs...if he'd just gone about his usual business it would've been done in 3 or 4 and we wouldn't have been able to see so much.

 

86-89 unbeatable...DREMULLEN.

 

Given the fact that he looks like he lost 50 pounds in a month or two, I'd say he's in his prime right now!

 

Tony Tucker or Frank Bruno

 

Wrong answer..

 

Im not going to get in a pissing match with you again. If you want to believe Witherspoon faced better fighters than Tubbs and Thomas combined so be it. I, and their records, would strongly disagree with that.
If you believe Tim Witherspoon was some dynamo, most likely he would have accomplished more than he did. If you think that Don King was the one who kept him from achieving greatness, thats your opinion and I disagree with that as well. Many Don King fighters were forced into fights on short notice. There's also many behind the scenes stories of a lot of different fighters, whether it be contract disputes, injuries, drug problems, etc. In fact King did everything he could to get Tyson beat, because he didnt promote him, yet Tyson cleaned out all his fighters in that tournament because he WAS a great fighter. If you think Tyson avoided Witherspoon I disagree with that too. Witherspoon had a chance to fight Tyson had he won the WBA fight.

 

It would seem that out of shear frustration, you have resorted to putting words in my mouth. I do not, nor have I ever believed that Tim Witherspoon was a " great fighter. " My only belief was that he was a notch above the rest of his pears, and I'm comfortable that I have made my case more than adequately. Secondly, I have never claimed that Mike Tyson " avoided " Witherspoon. I have made my position clear on that issue multiple times and in many threads. You seem content to not listening. Witherspoon's career was sabotaged because his promotor no longer wanted him in the picture. He was viewed as bad for business...Period. There has never been any claim of Tyson suffering from cold feet, or at least not from me.... As for your comment about Witherspoon receiving a chance to fight Tyson, only to be thwarted by the Smith loss, is incorrect. That fight was never going to happen.....Period.....

 

Maghoo I am going to have to disagree with you here. Witherspoon to me never established himself as a dominant force over the rest of the Alpa Champs. In fact too me he is always on the same level as a tubbs/thomas level of ability, which is rather good IMO. nothing about witherspoon stuck out as greater than them. Sure he took holmes to the brink of a split decision, but holmes ducked thomas, page, tubbs, from 1983-1985 so these men never got the chance to fight holmes. For all we know they may have beaten Larry during this time. 2ndly, you say Witherspoon performed better in his late years and I disagree. He seemed to lose everytime he stepped up to face a world class fighter. Tony Tubbs at age 33 was robbed against a Prime ATG riddick Bowe imo, and this is a signifigant better accomplishment than what Witherspoon did in the 90s. Drugs caused Pinklon Thomas to have a short prime, but Thomas established himself just as good prime for prime as Spoon by beating a Young Witherspoon worse than Holmes did.

Witherspoon did record a long list of good wins but if you look at his wins over Page and Tubbs, these were stinkers that could have gone either way. Page showed up looking like a baloon, and I still thought this one could have been called a draw....and tubbs/spoon put on a 15 round snoozefest that could have been called a draw. I thought Bruno was getting the better of Spoon until round 11, but Bruno had a history of falling apart late(bonecrusher Smith) Witherspoon did, however, lose a close but clear cut decision to Pinklon Thomas. He also got caught early and blasted away in 1 round by the dangerous bonecrusher smith. This just shows to me Witherspoon was on the same level of these men. Maybe he ranks the highest at # 1, but nothing on film or resume indicataes he should be a clear cut notch above the thomas/tubbs/ of the world.

 

One does not necessarily need to be dominant to establish themselves as the best among peers. While most of the fragment title holders were basically on the same plane in terms of quality there were a select few who I believe were a tad better than the rest, ie Weaver, Witherspoon, Berbick, etc.. For me, Tim Witherspoon defeated a larger range of better fighters, even if those fighters were not exactly stellar. He also has the claim to have acquired a fragment on two occasions -something that no other 80's alpha champ did. In addition, of the 9 fragment holders who held a piece of the belt anywhere from 1979 - 1987, Tim Witherspoon is one of only two who can claim to have won 3 title fights ( Tubbs, Page, Bruno. ) The only other was Weaver who beat Tate, Coetzee and Tillis.

Fair enough, though I don't think that those other two men were tested in quite as many fights. Thomas's claim to fame is wins over James Tillis ( who spoon beat in 1 round. ) A victory over a 34 year old Mike Weaver who hadn't beaten a rated opponent in 4 years, and a Majority decision over an 18 fight Spoon who some feel was the worst prime performance of his career. He fought to a standstill with Gerrie Coetzee who most of his peers were beating at the time, and was outboxed in one sided fashion by Berbick. Tony Tubbs has claim to only two real signature wins in his career, which were Page who everybody and their brother was beating between 1984-1987, and James Smith - similar case.

None of those men particulary carried that extra " something special. " Most of them were deconditioned, on drugs, working with crap managment or were unjustly promoted. I do think that Witherspoon's awkward style, punching power, defense, and other tools made him a tad more formidable than the others, but that is subject to in depth debate.

In 1985, perhaps. But timing is everything. In 1983, a 15 fight novice giving Holmes fits was still something to be taken seriously. Homes had just put on the performance of his career by mutilating Cooney months earlier. Remember, during that same year Pinklon Thomas was 20-0. Not 15-0, yet he drew with Coetzee who others were beating. Tubbs had about the same number of fights, but was still taking on journeyman. Page had just got his ass handed to him by Berbick, then was decked in the second round against Tillis, before wearing him down late. Witherspoon had the fewest number of fights, yet there is no question in my mind who was better in 1983 between Witherspoon and the men you listed.

Again timing is everything. Witherspoon did not start losing big marquee fights until he was 39 years of age or older, and on the comeback trail for the second time in his career. At this very point in time, he was beating Gonzalez, Cole, and was arguably robbed against Mercer. Also, your favorite magazine the RING, had Spoon in their annual ratings in 1996. Though Tubbs continued to fight well into old age, he was doing nothing of note by age 39. As for Tony giving a young Bowe fits at age 33, you have to consider that Bowe was still a good 10 fights away from his peak days against Holyfield, and I wouldn't exactly call the fight a robbery, just close. Spoon at 33, was coming away with ACTUAL VICTORIES over proven contenders in Jose Ribalta and Carl Williams. I will also ad that not long after Tubbs had lost to Bowe, he was blasted out in a single round by journeyman Butler.

A single performance in one head to head matchup, does not automatically award the right to say that one fighter is " better" than the other. Using this logic would lead to the conclusion that Douglas was better than Tyson, Barkley better than Hearns, Sanders better than Klitschko, etc, etc..Witherspoon, with less fights than Thomas, battled him to somewhat of a close outcome. In addition, if we're going to look at who looked better against common opponents, then how about Spoon finishing off Tillis in a fraction of the time that it took Thomas?

As indecisive as they may have seemed, I don't think that Tubbs or Page could have been declared the winner in either of those fights. Were they lousy performances? Yes, but Spoon got the wins and the other two didn't.

Again, I disagree that these fights were even, and Witherspoon was just as guilty of showing up to fights out of shape as anyone else during that period. Can't give out points for lack of discipline.

I have not seen the Bruno fight in its entirety, but I did see clips of the punch that laid out Frank and it was brutal. Also, all three judges had Witherspoon ahead, and given that the fight was at Wembley stadium with Bruno being the national hero, I have my doubts about Spoon receiving a scoring gift. In addition, Bruno was a legitimate contender at the time, and Spoons KO of him may well have been one of the most decisive title victories of any of the alpha champions.

The Smith loss proves nothing to me, as I have already started multiple threads on the issue numerous times before, and don't care to go into it again.

Once again, I am not placing Witherspoon on a pedistal - only claiming that he was the best among peers, particularly by virtue of his greater list of wins, and better results against his contemporaries. Make of it what you will.

Another small point: Spoon was rated in the Ring's top 10 from 1982 - 1991, then again for a brief period in 1996 for a grand total of 11 years. For 9 of those 11 years, he was TOP 5!!!!.. You won't find any alpha champ who has such a long standing rating with the Ring...

 

I've got something else for you Suzie, ( and left hook. )

Thanks to Hhascup, I was able to copy the ring's top 50 all time great heavyweights from another thread.. Enjoy!!


Ring Had the top 50:

This was done by the editors of Ring Magazine back in 1998.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Evander Holyfield
4. George Foreman
5. Larry Holmes
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Sonny Liston
8. Joe Frazier
9. Jack Johnson
10. Jack Dempsey
11. Ezzard Charles
12. James J. Jeffries
13. Jersey Joe Walcott
14. Mike Tyson
15. Gene Tunney
16. Harry Wills
17. Sam Langford
18. John L. Sullivan
19. Max Schmeling
20. Max Baer
21. Floyd Patterson
22. Ken Norton
23. Riddick Bowe
24. Bob Fitzsimmons
25. Joe Jeannette
26. Jimmy Bivins
27. Jerry Quarry
28. Jack Sharkey
29. Archie Moore
30. Sam McVey
31. Cleveland Williams
32. Lennox Lewis
33. Earnie Shavers
34. Jim Corbett
35. Ernie Terrell
36. Michael Spinks
37. Jimmy Young
38. Zora Folley
39. Ingemar Johansson
40. Ron Lyle

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42. Jimmy Ellis

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44. Michael Moorer
45. James J. Braddock
46. Tommy Farr
47. Tommy Burns
48. Tommy Gibbons

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