Do Dempsey's Words Hold Any Water on The Willis Situation?

"I would have fought Wills," Dempsey told the New York Post in 1953, "but nobody would promote it. When Wills challenged, Tex Rickard would have nothing to do with the fight. He said he had instructions from Washington not to promote a mixed[-race] bout for the heavyweight title."

Tex Richard also supposedly promoted the Jeffries vs Johnson fight. And seeing the former champion Jeffries lose to the despised Johnson wasn't well liked.

It seems for the Dempsey situation that there was more than a large opportunity to get the Willis fight to happen. And maybe there was - at least that's how it's percieved. But what makes it that much more substantial or different to Johnson not rematching the Langfords and McVea's when he was champion. A black on black fight wasn't going to be wanted or liked, but a white man against a black man about 10 years after the Johnson vs Jeffries bout wasn't something that the promoters or powers to be wanted. Maybe the public did (Why wouldn't they it would be a great fight).

Does Dempsey get way too much slack for this? Does Dempsey's comments hold any water? Is it possible that Dempsey was just as infringed as Willis with this fight, or did he just not push hard enough to make it happen?

 

Maybe I'm naive (and I do have a soft spot for Dempsey) but I've always taken those comments at face value. They seem reasonable IMHO.

 

I seriously doubt Dempsey feared any man regardless of coler.

 

I take Dempsey at his word on the matter. It is unfortunate they never met in the ring. I think Dempsey would have beaten Wills.

 

Wills himself said it wasn't Dempsey's fault this one didn't come off, which I'd think might lend further credence to Dempsey's words.

 

He probably could've pushed harder, but you'd be asking him to push much harder than other champions are generally expected to to make a fight with a particular contender.

He and his team genuinely tried to make the fight in '22 and '23, following the fight with Carpentier, but they were thwarted - first by Wills' team, who proved to be difficult negotiators (as they had a reputation of being); and then once they had finally reached a deal, commissions in the US refused to sanction the fight. At one point, NY's commissioner stood up at a conference and told the press outright, "This fight will never happen in this state as long as I'm the commissioner". Eventually, Dempsey and his people got fed up with the roadblocks and decided to look elsewhere for opponents, and Rickard arranged a tournament to determine another leading challenger for Dempsey (which Firpo won, and earned him the shot).

A year or so later, the NY commission recanted its earlier stance on the matter and told Dempsey he had to defend against Wills ASAP. I would say here, Dempsey had a genuine chance to make the fight and was responsible for not following through (although he still would've had to break with Rickard and sign on with Floyd Fitzsimmons to make the fight happen). But even then, to criticize him for not making the fight at this point would mean to criticize him for not pursuing a fight with a guy that he had already pursued a fight with and been jerked around and frustrated, and for not bending to the will of the very same people that had blocked the fight from happening in the first place.

Although I believe not fighting Wills will always leave some sort of question mark around Dempsey's legacy, I don't know that I can blame him for telling the NY commission to go **** itself. They wouldn't allow him to make the fight when he tried to, and then suddenly turned around and told him he had to make it whether it was convenient for him or not. That was a bull**** move on their part IMO.

 

Good post and good points. It seems Dempsey gets slated for blatantly ducking Harry Willis. Obviously it's a big question mark on his legacy and obviously it should hurt minimally at the very least. However, I don't think Dempsey's deserves the amount of scrutiny considering that that sort of fight was clearly never going to be easy to make. I think that's the main point here. Dempsey is probably the hardest criticize old time champ on this site and when I tried researching I read various reports on how it wasn't Dempsey's fault. Some say otherwise - apparently Louis' management thought Dempsey feared losing to a black fighter. Dempsey says they tried making the fight. This has to have some merit, though. Is it fair to bang on Dempsey for the Willis thing IF the effort was made when Johnson didn't fight many notable black contenders. From my knowledge, this is a case of much more blatant ducking because unless I'm wrong on Johnson wanting to fight these contendors. The only main difference is that the public may have wanted a Dempsey vs Willis fight. The extra scrutiny doesn't seem exactly fair for Dempsey, though.

 

Johnson was hounded quite a bit by the media for not giving Langford a shot, who was generally considered the #1 contender for most of his reign (until he lost to Gunboat Smith). But not only did Johnson not fight Langford in that time, he also failed to defend against most of his other leading contenders, ie: Smith, Jeanette, McVey, etc. Instead he fought second tier contenders like Flynn and Moran, and an outright journeyman in Battling Jim. Dempsey, when not fighting Wills, at least fought other leading contenders like Firpo, Tunney, and Carpentier.

 

dempsey is full of ****. tex rickard was not the only promoter in the country by a long shot and there were several other high profile promoters and cities willing to fight for the opportunity to promote the wills-dempsey bout. i have newsreel footage of dempsey and wills signing contracts with michigan promoter floyd fitzsimmons for a bout which dempsey backed out of. its also bull**** that rickard was pressured by politicos to kill such a match. rickard was protecting his number 1 cash cow and wasnt about to get him beat by putting him in the ring ANYONE remotely threatening which is why he promoted dempsey in matches against Bill Brennan (who in the last year had lost four times to harry greb), Georges Carpentier (whose training camp was kept closed to keep how much inferior opponent he was from the public), firpo (who rickard had personally brought over from argentina with intent of building him up as an "opponent" for dempsey) and tunney (who no one thought had a chance to beat dempsey until he actually did and did so in one sided fashion...).

 

You are right when you say that Tex wasn't the only promoter in the country, but he was also the best promoter in the country.

I believe Jack when he says that he would have fought him. In factm there's a photo somewhere of Wills and Dempsey signing the contract for the two to fight. Even tickets were printed.

Dempsey was very confident about his chances with Wills, whom he felt was too slow for him.

 

If Dempsey, or his promoters/managers were as confident of Dempsey's ability to defeat Wills then the fight would have happened. Its as simple as that. I find it humorous that you say Dempsey would have fought him and youve seen pictures of him signing contracts etc and yet never question who pulled out of the fight, more than once... IT WAS DEMPSEY.

Rickard may have been the best promoter but that has nothing to do with whether or not anyone else in the country would have been willing or able to pull off a Dempsey-Wills match. Sorry, but Dempsey's excuses and those of his supporters simply dont hold water.

 

So much of the above is factually inaccurate its amazing to me. In 1922 two elimination bouts were held to decide a worthy contender for Dempsey. Greb-Gibbons and Wills-Norfolk. Greb one his bout in one sided fashion and Wills destroyed Norfolk in two rounds. Dempsey didnt fight either one, he chose instead to fight Tommy Gibbons, who had lost in one sided fashion to Greb in the eliminator for those with a short memory) on a card promoted by Mike Collins in Shelby, Montana (giving proof to the idea that Dempsey could and would fight on non Rickard promoted cards. Wills' team was not difficult in negotiations unless you consider demanding that they get paid and not have to throw the fight difficult. They were considered difficult because they demanded that Dempsey fight Wills, Dempsey's top contender. Poor Dempsey:roll: All this bull**** about the New York Commission is ridiculous anyway. "They wouldnt let him fight Wills first and then they demanded he fight Wills" Bull****. As stated before, Dempsey was not under any obligation to fight for Rickard or in New York. It is ALWAYS conveniently forgotten that promoters ALL OVER THE UNITED STATES, in CANADA, and several other foreign countries were ALWAYS willing to promote a Wills bout, it was simply easier to hide behind imagined boogy men then to actually have to fight a real one. You also state that Dempsey would have had to have "left Rickard and signed on with Fitzsimmons" Dempsey had no exclusive contract with Rickard. He was free to fight for any promoter he wished. He had already fought for Fitzsimmons once as champion (Miske) and would also fight for Mike Collins (Gibbons). That alone is pure apologist garbage, as if he was BOUND to Rickard. Dempsey gets fed up and decides to look elsewhere for opponents???? HAHAHAHA. Dempsey and his people were ALWAYS looking elsewhere for opponents. The sole purpose Rickard brought Firpo to the United States was to be built up as am attraction so Dempsey could knock him out and look good, after all the "elimination" you mention was between Firpo and the geriatric Willard who had already been slaughtered by Dempsey years earlier and was largely inactive. Some elimination bout:rofl I mean, lets face the facts, there is a reason why Dempsey was FORCED to fight Gene Tunney in Philly and not in New York. It was because he had refused to face his top contender for seven years. As I said before, Dempsey and his people could have shut up a lot of critics, proven that they actually wanted to defend against the best, and answered a lot of critics by choosing to fight Wills ANYWHERE. The proof is in the pudding, actions speak FAR louder than words in this situation and those actions are the blatant ducking of the top heavyweight contender from the beginning to the end of his 7 year reign.

 

Dempsey's team entered into negotiations with Wills in June and July of '22. Kearns willingly signed to fight, it was Mullins who kept refusing to sign and stalled the negotiations. One of the reasons he gave to the NY Times, ironically: "The challenger's manager insisted on substituting provisions for the bout to be held under the rules of the NY State Athletic Commission." (Not because "he was asked to throw the fight", etc.) It was Wills' own people who wanted the NY commission involved in the matter.

Both sides had signed an agreement to fight by the end of July.

Yes, promoters were interested in the fight. However, commissions were not, and a promoter being "interested" doesn't mean jack if a commission won't sanction it. It's not "bull****" that US commissions didn't want the fight in their own backyards, it was clearly documented.

For example:

-NY Commissioner Muldoon (the same person who Wills' team said they wanted to abide by): "There will never be a Dempsey-Wills bout in this state while I am head of the State Athletic Commission." - January '23.

-NJ Commissioner Messano: "No permit will be granted for a bout between Dempsey and Wills." - initially stated in May '22, reiterated in another statement in February '23.

Saying, "Yeah, but he could've gone outside the country" just shows exactly what a ridiculous position he was put in. WHY should the HW champion of the world be forced to go outside his own country to fight a fellow countryman that his country is (supposedly) demanding him to fight?? It makes no sense. That alone is asking more from him than is normally expected of other champions.

That's purely your own view on the matter. Willard had knocked out a legit contender in Floyd Johnson since coming back and had legitimately put himself back into the mix of contenders, regardless of what his age was. Earlier you labeled Wills-Norfolk and Greb-Gibbons as "elimination" fights, but if you so chose, you could just as well dismiss the Wills fight as a mismatch vs. a one-eyed LHW, and the Greb-Gibbons fight as just being between two veteran LHWs. Regardless of what you think of Firpo, he had legitimately put himself into title consideration by beating a string of contenders.

 

The fight didn't come off because of the times...that's all! Dempsey feared no man...and he would have beaten Wills.

 

Solid post. One interesting thing to note is Wills himself said he did not blame Dempsey. There was a lot of promotional alphabet soup going on in those days.