Jeffries: 'Tough' tough, or Hvywt fighting Little guys?

Have you considered Langford expected Johnson to mop the floor with Jeffries and by basically saying 'Jeffries is the greatest ever', the racially motivated powers that be would want him to get a title shot as they'd rather have a respectful 'house n1gger' than a 'bad n1gger' like Johnson? Do you also not think Langford by playing possom claiming to be fearful of Jeffries is not more likely to be offered a big money fight with Jeffries?

Do you truly consider it likely Langford would be 'scared' to fight Jeffries yet not the man that beat him? Or other big similarly talented men like McVea, Jeanette, Godfrey etc etc while being either massively undersized or near blind? I see this as quite unlikely, if nothing else Sam could take a dive or spoil and run to the bank with his payday

 

Yes, they were all racists, but how could any of that lead us to conclude that Langford (ie. Langford's manager) was stating "we wont fight Jeffries" to somehow please the white (or racist) public ?

It doesn't really make sense. The conventions of the day allowed any white man to refuse to give a black man a chance on the grounds of race. The conventions of the day also allowed (or even expected) a black fighter to be willing to fight anyone.

Can someone show me one instance where a black man was lauded for expressing his unwillingness to fight a white ?

 

You would have no trouble finding the reverse scenario.
Jeffries stated categorically he would" retire rather than risk losing his championship to a negro".

 

I believe we need A LOT more video on Jeffries to make a decision either way, let alone keep ranking him among the very best heavyweight champs of all time. But hey - that's me. :smoke

 

Exactly.
And in a racist society the two scenarios are not equal.
So what exactly was Langford to gain by saying he didn't want Jeffries ?

Whites wouldn't have said "Ah, there's a good boy, we really admire how you wont fight Jeffries" ....... they would more likely call him "another yellow c*oon!"

 

So, Langford won't fight a Jeffries ,who has been out of the ring for nearly 6 years, but he is more than happy to take on Johnson ,a man who dropped him and broke his nose,giving him"the only real thrashing I ever took"?

Before anyone points out that Langford scaled 156lbs fro that fight,might I remind them that Johnson came in at 185lbs ,so he was 23lbs below his optimum weight too.
Plus, Langford was the more experienced fighter having had 50 known contests,his last being a dec victory over joe Jeannete ,20 days previously.

I don't buy it.

 

Firstly, it Langford's manager.

And Jeffries and Johnson are two completely different fighters, two different styles.
Jeffries was a 220 pound beast - who came forwards, a man who soaked up Fitzsimmons' best shots and brutality battered Tom Sharkey around the body till his ribs protruded through his side.
Fitz couldn't KO him, Choynski couldn't KO him. Couldn't even knock him down.
Maybe Langford's manager bought into the Jeffries "myth" too much, I dont know.
But it was not outrageous for him to think Sam, a short stocky 165 - 175 pound puncher didn't have the style to tangle with Jeffries. If Fitz and Choynski couldn't floor him, what chance did he really think Sam had ?

I think that's a likelier explanation than trying to please the whites. Remember, Jeffries was great, and almost everyone was still caught up in the Jeffries invincible myth at the time. They really believed he could be unbeatable again if he got himself in shape.

If Langford and his manager were trying to please the whites why not come straight out and say it, "We dont believe Sam, a negro, is worthy of challenging for the white man's title" ?
I mean, if they were really trying to ingratiate themselves with white supremacists.

 

Firstly in boxing, no man like Langford is scared of any man, even if he was sure he'd lose him and his manager was sure he'd lose, they would without a doubt take Jeffries fight because it'd mean the same payday as fighting. Taking 1 beating from 1 man for more pay than you'd get from 20-30 fights is a no brainer, you can spoil or take a dive if the going gets tough anyway. I dont think Langford or his manager were too bothered about Sams welfare looking at the schedule and punnishment he went through

Langford or his manager were ingraciating themselves to get his name in the papers, nothing more and nothing less

 

It might have been a combination of the two, a, "look dont worry about me,I know my place,I'll happily get off the sidewalk for white folks to pass",which he did in England , to the astonishmnent of London promoters,thats why it was called the c**n walk.
Coupled with the fact that stylistically and physically he did not match up well with Jeffries.In reality Langford was a light heavy at best,he had massive shoulders and arms but was 5' 7''tall.

 

It's been many years since I read this, but Corbett hurled racial epithets at Peter Jackson to get under his skin (and he was certainly famous for his brand of psychological warfare against others). However, Corbett also reportedly went to Jackson after their draw to apologize for all the insults issued beforehand, explaining that it was indeed a ploy (an apology Jackson is supposed to have graciously accepted).

I don't know that Corbett was any more of a bigot than anyone else of his day. He came from a family that was, "lace curtain Irish," acutely aware of their upstart status in the American social fabric of the times.

Most of Jim Corbett's animosity was reserved for a Polish Jew, neighborhood rival Joe Choynski. Mrs. Corbett didn't want her boys getting into scraps, but the Choynski boys were rowdy youths, and Mr. Corbett was delighted that one of his sons (Jim) licked a Choynski kid (Joe) in a fist fight.

 

Gentle Man Jim Corbett was an arsehole imo.
Ringside for the Jeffries Johnson fight he kept up an obscene litany of racial epiphets ,allways being topped by a cutting Johnson rejoinder,until with the fact that Jeffries was outclassed in every department , was obvious to all and sundry, Corbett finally fell silent."How did you like that little uppercut Jim?.
Soon as I finish with Mr Jeff ,you can come up here ,and I'll fix you up too".

Johnson did the same thing with Sullivan ,who had invoked the colour line as a means of avoiding his standout challenger Peter Jackson." I will not fight a negro, I never have ,and I never shall".
"Did you happen to notice that left hook Capn John"?

After the fight ,to give Sullivan his due [he had been a very big booster of Jeffries,"the fastest big man I ever saw"].Sullivan. said Johnson's defence was" impregnable" and his " reflexes uncanny"

 

I used the words because i was not so sure, for the simple reason that i seem to have read more posts like mcvey posted than the one you just posted. I do think that it is quite plausible that the racial insults were indeed part of psychological tactics and even attempts to sell tickets. No different really to what Muhammed Ali did to all his opponents. I dont think anything was meant by it. In fact,i think that this even extends to guys like Tyson. Still, on current evidence, Jim Corbett doesnt really seem like that much of a gentleman. To be fair though, neither does Iron Mike and many others.

One thing i am convinced by, is that boxings champions and the general boxing public were (for the majority) far less racists in attitudes than the general public or at least high proportions of the public. Most of them mixed with Blacks, had black friends etc. Interestingly, when blacks did fight whites, it was not unusual for the blacks to actually win decisions. Sure many wore the cuffs sometimes, but that was simply a monetary thing. I am sure plentyof white guys wore the cuffs as well.

 

There's not one iota of evidence being put forward to substantiate that theory.

There's not one piece of proof that such a statement as the one made by Sam Langford's manager even would be viewed favourably by the public.

There's not a single instance of where any black fighter said he wouldnt like to fight a white champion being seen as something admirable.

Show me just one report where the statement by Langford's manager (or a similar statement from a black fighter) is explicitly or implicitly praised for being "good negro behaviour".

It seems to be rampant speculation, based on a shaky assumption that the racist attitudes of them would respect a black fighter who was scared or unwilling to fight Jeffries more than they'd respect one who was prepared to fight anyone meaning anyone (..... though obviously, being black he shouldn't be given the chance).

The fact that Jim Jeffries was the only unbeaten, "invincible", 220 pound legendary fighter on the planet, the only man impervious to knockout punches, seems to be dismissed out of hand.

The newspaper date is June 21, 1909, and as of that time Sam Langford had fought no one who can be comapared with Jim Jeffries. The worst beating Langford had took was probably against Johnson, who was a defensive fighter and one who could be knocked out - Jeffries was reckoned neither of those things, and bigger besides.
It's wrong to assume they would have taken any sort of beating and taken a fight they thought Sam had no chance of winning at this time, simply for the payday. It's also wrong to assume Langford would get 20-30 times what he'd get in other fights, we dont know.

Considering that Langford could make light-heavyweight and middleweight at this time, it makes sense to believe they did NOT think being "killed" by Jeffries would be the only option to make make money.

Most likely, considering Jeffries' reputation at the time and his aura of invincibility, his stature, he was just a guy Joe Woodman thought was a little bit "too big and bad" for little Sam.

 

Well when Johnson openly campained for Burns world title and vocally challenged and chased burns, there seemed to be some backlash about it.