How will Fedor be remembered?

According to who is remembering him. Some remember his as great while others will remember him for not fighting in the UFC. Sadly

 

similar to how royce is remembered

a pioneer, but a legend nonetheless

 

I tend to agree with this. Not to take anything away from Fedor, who certainly has accomplished a lot, but I think MMA right now is where boxing was around the turn of the last century- just coming into its own as a mature art form. I think right now we are still in a transition period/growth phase where many athletes are still transitioning into MMA from other sports, whether combat sports or elsewhere. I think for the sport to progress to the next level we'll need to start seeing people coming up who start young with MMA as their primary, or at least secondary sport. Then I think the level of competition will increase by an order of a magnitude. Also, and along with that, I think that styles will probably continue to refine as MMA practitioners and coaches figure out which move-sets work the best with which fighters, or even body types. Again though, thats not to take anything away from Fedor. Somebody has to be a pioneer.

 

iv read some **** in my time but this! fedor is one for the ages,the complete article not a fat drunken irishman! i suppose st pierre will be looked upon as primitive soon too? please,a great fighter is a great fighter ali could compete in any era! go finish your washing up fool.

 

It's not a bad comparison; if you look at RINGS/Pancrase style fighting as bare knuckle was to boxing, Fedor is the bridge.

One problem with it is that Boxing moved from one thing to one other thing, bare knuckle to gloved/timed/scored/etc. Predecessors of MMA developed more or less independently in two distinct and very different forms: Vale Tudo and Japanese Shootwrestling.

I think its fair to say that Vale Tudo was more similar in spirit to bare knuckle, so in that sense a guy like Wanderlei Silva or Mark Coleman would be more like Sullivan.

 

Wow, you miss the point entirely.

He isn't saying Fedor is bad, just that the current time period in MMA relates to the time period in boxing when John L Sullivan was champ.

 

You say:

"I think MMA fans 50 years hence will look at him as a "pioneer" rather than the kind of guy who could step out of a time machine and beat the best of the future"


By saying this , you're assuming that all future participants will be extremely calm in the face of adversity. You're assuming that all , will have fast reflexes , all will have better balance on the ground , all will have superior gameplans , all will happen to excel in russian sambo etc...etc...

But this is quite naive on your part. I'm guessing you're thinking that way because you're innevitably comparing mma to boxing's evolution.

But mma isn't about perfectioning a single discipline. (like boxing) mma gives you the opportunity to use any styles...Participants could be greco wrestlers , judokas , karatekas , boxers , kickboxers etc...etc...

Compare with what's comparable.

John L. Sullivan is comparable to other boxers.

An mma participant can't be lumped in the same category.

For example , how in the hell can you even compare Hidehiko Yoshida to let's say....Igor Vovchanchyn ? Or Melvin Manhoef to Kevin Randleman ? or Semmy Schilt to Roger Gracie ? ...

That's the beauty of the sport. Unlike boxing , this isn't a case where we'd be confronted to a situation where we'd have let's say , Marciano vs Lennox Lewis ...or Vitali vs Dempsey.

Because in mma , you ALREADY have participants which are not just mere "pioneers" , but timeless , "cream of the crop" specialists , who just happen to give mma a try.

Remember Pawel Nastula ?
"312 consecutive wins over a period of 1,220 days" ...
Won gold in Atlanta...In other words , an elite judoka... How can a guy like this be compared to any other mma participants ? There's Yoshida who won gold in Barcelona... These two alone , put to shame Sokoudjou's or Parisyan's judo credentials ..

And yet ! ...They weren't the gods of mma. Mentioning Sullivan or Ali is too reductive. It works for the boxing world.

There won't be another Fedor in 10 or 30 years...In order to do that you'd have to find a guy who happens to excel in sambo , who happens to also be great in judo..who happens to have fast reflexes , happens to be calm , happens to be a smart strategist etc...etc..

Not every chess player is on Kasparov's level. No matter the era.
Kasparov could've been born in 1990 or the 17th century , it wouldn't have made much of a difference because 2009 strategists aren't using any "new" tricks...

 

What are the odds of finding clones of Fedor ? As thin as finding the 2009 equivalent of Ludwig van Beethoven.

In mma , you can't even compare the so called P4P top dogs with each other.

Penn's style is too different from GSP's....Anderson's has nothing in common with Fedor's... One is more specialised in muay thai , the other is better in wrestling...another excels in Jiujitsu....Another excels in sambo.

A specimen like Fedor is unique...just like Nogueira is. (what are the odds of finding a hw who happens to have a solid chin..happens to have an amazing stamina , happens to excel in jiujitsu etc..)

In boxing...the striking approach had an evolution...
In mma...There's ALREADY specialists of classic disciplines.

(Lindland , silver medal in greco...) Greco is Greco...it's been the same for centuries. Boxing on the other hand already had a bunch of transitional styles. That's why you can't compare John L Sullivan with a modern boxer.

Because no one uses this stance now

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Which is why in boxing we can talk of "Pioneers"...

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Today boxers have a different stance.


On the other hand , A judoka such as Masahiko Kimura (1917-1993)

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WOULD still be ultra dominant for anyone in today's judo era...or, in 2010 or 2030...etc...etc..

The pioneers of MMA ?

Sadly , that guy is one of them

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In other words ,...JUST LIKE TODAY...anyone can give it a try. Only difference today is that legit specialists of various disciplines are giving it a try. (wrestlers , sambo artists , judokas , jitujitsu artists)...

 

Back then ? The only guy who was using jiujitsu in the ufc was Royce Gracie. He was "good" but not for "his era". The moves he used to perform are still used today. Royce was quite one dimensional for any eras...but a big opportunist. (and that's why sakuraba had no problem exposing the Gracie myth)...They did a great job making bjj more popular though.

The reality of the situation is that legit olympic caliber participants (such as Yoshida , Nastula , Lindland , Karelin for example) weren't part of these early ufc competitions.

A guy like Royce Gracie SHOULD'VE been schooled back then ! but he wasn't confronted to superior jiujitsu artists...wasn't confronted to world class judokas...

Today we're at a point in time where BJJ is part of the norm.

Also , there's no problems such as reach advantage in MMA.

It would be hard to imagine a guy of Marciano's size confronted to Vitali Klitschko. In mma , this isn't an issue. (unless you insist on striking). In mma , there's takedowns to avoid this problem.

Some of today's HW boxers are too big compared to the 1920's hws or even 1960, 70's , 80's... In mma , the hw division is already filled with all sizes & body types..from Lesnar to Hong man choi , to Monson , Carwin , Nogueira , Kharitonov , Crocop , Kongo etc...

There won't be a Fedor 2.0 in the future...Just like today's NBA isn't filled with Michael Jordans or Larry birds or magic Johnson clones.

Just like not every quarterback is as talented as Joe Montana. He wasn't just good for his era...he was good by any standards...a specimen like Montana would be legit in 2009...he'd still be dominant.

20 or 40 years from now , soccer will not be filled with 1000's of Zidane or Pele or Lionel Messi clones.

Because soccer has always been the way it is today. (with a few rules modifications). But there were no innapropriate or modified stances in soccer. ( like in boxing. )

MMA isn't plagued with this problem. Because mma isn't a single discipline. There's just participants , who use different , classic grappling disciplines.

The only possible difference , evolutionary step, MMA can eventually have maybe in 5 or 10 years from now...is to finally have a majority...at least 90% participants... capable to defend & apply submissions. (which sadly , isn't the case yet). Just look at Kongo , Liddell , Lesnar , Hardonk & countless others.

 

John L. Sullivan could step out of a time machine and spark quite a few of modern boxers and MMA fighters in a bare-knuckle match.

 

Yeah, right. Tell that to Karelin who was robbed of a fourth olympic medal with a made up rule designed to make it harder for him to dominate, and that was promptly repealed once he retired.

 

I don't think its demeaning to Fedor, or John L. Sullivan, to look at it this way. They do the best with the state of the art of the era in which they live. The same qualities that make them successful in their era would probably make them successful in any other. They would just look different achieving their success.

 

Comparing anybody to Sullivan is certainly not demeaning.

 

The best EVA....as Lennox Lewis would insist.