Are these the top 5 fighters since Ray Leonard ?

A great welterweight would have disposed of Judah with ease IMO. He was always there for the taking. He'd just lost to Baldomir FFS!

Berto? Eminently beatable by a top welter, as will shortly be proven by SSM.

Again, I do believe (and did believe after Hatton-Collazo) that a great welter blows Hatton away.

 

Lennox Lewis has to be on the list.

He's widely considered on these boards to be amongst the top five greatest heavyweights of all time, he retired as the undisputed champion of the world in the most prestigious division, he has beaten every man he has gotten into the ring with and throughout his career, he pretty much took on all comers during one of the most stacked heavyweight divisions of any era. It is this competition that makes me put him above Larry Holmes.

What more can you want? IMO, top 5 fighters since Ray Leonard. :good

 

Judah succumbs to pressure. Judah is very difficult to outbox. Cory Spinks found that out. Mayweather discovered this too, and is not a pressure fighter. Mayweather put the pressure on around the 5th round on, and looked to be on his way to forcing a stoppage. I thought it was one of his most champion like performances.

I was questioning your use of the world frail more than anything. I expect Mosley to stop Berto, but I wouldn't call him fragile. You called Hatton frail based upon his performance to Collazo, whom I thought performed just as well against Berto.

I can't really argue with this. I bet against Hatton going into the Collazo fight based solely on the footage HBO provided in their pre-fight commercials. I scored the fight 6-4 in Collazo's favor, with the fight being even because of Hatton knocking Collazo down. That, or I had it 5-5 for Hatton, and gave the fight to Hatton with the knock down factored in. I don't remember exactly. I just know I lost a couple dollars.

I don't argue Floyd as one of the top 5 fighters since Ray Leonard, and am even further away from arguing his all time worth at welterweight. I just thought the Judah and Hatton fights were bad examples of fights to hold against him.

 

Mayweather will never be as good as Whitaker but resume wise its close imo:

135-130/135

Castillo x2 - Rameriez x2
Corrales-Nelson
Manfredy - Mayweather
Genaro Hernandez -Haugen
Chavez-Paez
Augustus-Pendleton

140

Gatti-Pineda
Corley

147

Pacquaio-Chavez
Judah-McGirt x2
Hatton-Delahoya

154

Delahoya-Vasquez

I'm not sure if there's a world of difference in terms of opposition, some of Whitakers are certainly better but some of Floyds are too

 

Disagreed. I think Holmes Lewis would be near pick 'em fight, although I might be leaning towards Lewis. The reason I picked Lewis over Holmes is his resume, the division was far deeper in Lewis' era and to have defeated each and every pretender to his throne is something else.

Morales and Barrera are absolute legends but when people in 20-30 years look back at this era, Lewis' name will crop up as one of the definitive fighters of these years.

It might not be fair, pound for pound others might be better, but (1) he's a heavyweight (2) who cleaned out a stacked division with fighters like Tyson, Holyfield, Tua etc, (3) retired undisputed heavyweight champion of the world and (4) with his retirement, the division went through one of its most turbulent times ever where his absence was deeply felt. These achievement and circumstances makes him one of the top fighters since Ray Leonard.

 

I disagree. As I said, the manner of victory is always important in deciding on the value of a win, in my mind it is always always a case of:

Quality of Opponent + Quality of Performance = Quality of Win

I won't be changing my criteria because it's Floyd or because it's Pac or because it's anyone, that is always the way. That's why I don't rate wins like Leonard-Hagler or Calzaghe-Hopkins as highly as the quality of opposition suggests, because if it's not a great performance then it has to detract from the quality of the win. It's just my own criteria/opinion, and I see no reason to change it for any specific fight.

 

Two comfortable wins, sure. But two opponents whose inherent frailties could have seen them taken apart more emphatically if Floyd was not so cautious.

You can't use the starting weight excuse when we are talking about fights at welterweight with Judah, Hatton and Marquez. Hatton and Judah were two very small welters, and Marquez was a fat lightweight. Floyd was the same size as Judah, and was bigger than Hatton and Marquez.