How would Duran retiring after Montreal affect his standing?

"Six of one, half a dozen of the other," is the bottom line in my view.

Ultimately, the lengthy continuation of his overall career offset the historical advantages of retiring after Montreal.

This question is almost perfectly comparable to asking where Robinson might have rated had he retired after the Valentine's Day Massacre. At that stage of their careers, their records are very similar.

For me personally, Montreal placed Duran at number two behind Robby on an all time P4P basis, and locked him in as my greatest fighter since 1950. (This is now etched in granite for me until or unless the championship distance is restored, an attitude which comes as a surprise to no one familiar with my posting history.) He could only have surpassed SRR by defeating Hagler. (Considering how Robby was dominating Maxim, a Duran win over Marv probably wouldn't have done it for me even without the Hearns debacle.) This would certainly have been revoked by the nature of his loss to Hearns, as nobody ever punched Robby out like that, at least not on any film that's come to light. (What happened with Ray and Artie Levine? Was Robby saved by a very slow count?)

Duran subsequently reinforced his greatness by repeatedly recovering from defeats which would have utterly and completely destroyed a lesser competitor. He was never forced into permanent retirement by an opponent. SRL was never in less than top physical condition, yet the span of his competitive viability was shockingly brief compared to Duran's. The mind boggles at what El Cholo might have achieved with the career long discipline and dedication of a Hagler.

Roberto was still a world class fighter at the brink of turning 50, and he was far better against Camacho than SRL had been (and certainly did better against Barkley than Hearns). He avenged his stoppage by Pat Lawlor over 30 years after beating Marcel. Archie Moore competed at the world class level for less than 25 years. As staggering as the length of Moore's career was, Duran eclipsed it by a considerable margin. He boxed over a span of more years than Harry Greb (a real potential challenger to SRR as the P4P GOAT) lived on this earth, and from 1968 to 2001 was only inactive in 1985 and 1990.

Of all the matches he had after Palomino, retiring after Hearns would have resulted in the greatest effect on his standing in my book, in an adverse way of course. Tommy should have destroyed him (as he did Cuevas), just as Tyson should have ruined Holmes. That they both came back reasserted their stature in my eyes.

 

Gotta take care of some things, B, will get back to you on this later.

 

There's actually a decent amount of footage of Robinson at Welterweight, on Youtube no less. Do people just not look?

 

Yeah fair enough, Hearns had superior reach and power and I think the Hagler maybe gave Duran a bit too much respect.

What do you think about Duran's win against Barkley then? Surely he had to face the same problems he did against Hearns regarding the height and reach advantage plus he was a good few years older.

 

The conclusion I've come to is that people who believe Duran to be overrated due to his past prime losses, especially while trying to legitimize them by comparing them to his past prime wins, are either very simple-minded or very uneducated about the man in general.

 

I'm curious myself about the best performance you saw Robinson in. As many bouts as he had, there had to be some variations in the quality of his work. That you thought he won the first match with Gavilan conclusively is priceless eyewitness testimony. Did the crowd generally root for his underdog opponents during his peak? Hearing the audience booing his clowning (a-la Max Baer), in the footage with Bobby Dykes causes me to wonder if this was usually the case.

 

It would have enhanced his legacy no doubt. He would have avoided the ko by Hearns, the boxing lesson given him by Benitez...the no Mas debacle...subtract all that and he would have been in the elite group...Marciano, Tunney, Monzon, Hagler (he didn't lose that fight to Leonard) and Lewis, who walked away while at the top...invincible and unvanquished.

 

Duran wasn't washed up agains Hearns. He was in slow motion compared to his prime, and he was fighting a much much bigger fighter, and the bigger fighters ideal weight, and a the bigger fighters prime age.
That Duran was able to give up so much to Hagler ( age,and size ) and make it clse is very impressive.

How many fighters do you know, could move up and fight bigger and younger fighters in hagler and hearns and even come close to either one.

 

His record is greatly enhanced by continuing. For a lightweight champion to move up in weight and all those years later win the middleweight championship from the man who wiped out Tommy Hearns is a remarkable feat.

Think about who this guy beat: Buchanan, DeJesus, Polomino, Leonard, Cuevas, Moore, Barkley, and arguably Camacho. From lightweight through middleweight, on those occasions when he was on top of his game, he was masterful.

As for excuses made about his losses, there aren't any. There are only the truths of history. The Hagler fight was inspired, but he clearly lost. The Benitez fight was flat, and Duran again clearly lost. The Hearns fight was a blowout. Hearns was peak. Duran made a terrible mistake in New Orleans, accepting a fight he could not get ready for. But he more than redeemed himself and went beyond his past accomplishments to establish himself as a true ring legend.

 

It was odd about Sugar, though fight insiders knew what an arrogant Diva he was, fans LOVED him. His incomparable skills, self-deprecating public face, charitable giving and radiant grill more than trumped all the whispers about whatta cold-hearted SOB he was.

Within 20-feet, he was MAGNIFICENT! A BRILLIANT NOVA, 'n on fight night that's what fans cared about, and Sugar always delivered. KO or hairline decision, he was always thrilling.

He was an attacking Fred Astair. Willing to fight tit-for-tat, but his tat's were three-to-one -- 'n every one lethal. Ringsiders winced at the fusillades 'n the impact. The lucky ones got flattened. The unlucky went the distance 'n got shell shocked. Sugar could be rocked 'n dropped, but it just added to the drama.

Seen every great one live since the early '40s. Ray's the best prize fighter I've ever seen.

The performances to pick from, D. These stand out: Steve Belloise in Yankee Stadium, Georgie Abrams, Costner in Philly, Olson in Philly 'n Gene Buffalo in Wilkes Barre.

 

bump

 

bump