Is James Toney an all atg

I think he is an ATG where to place him is the problem...VERY gifted boxer and he was a High School QB at 215 and went DOWN to 160 and won titles and also at 168 190 and HW yes was unmotivated and had weight problems but,he STILL was never KO'D and fought mostly everyone around in each of the divisions he was in.I think people are just tired of his mouth more than anything.

 

Toney probably used steroids, Botha/Vitali have been caught, Wlad is the more muscular brother of a proven steroid user, Morrison admited to using, Holyfield/Tyson have evidence to suggest they used, Golota/McCline/Briggs have blatantly used without being caught

 

Agreed, not to mention his resume is a whos who of boxing

 

I enjoyed his fights but always stopped watching once he started talking. even so the guys legacy is tainted by cheating. toney took a natural dip in form that lasted some time then without getting in shape he magicly improved, hmmmm.

 

Toney has his flaws, but he's definitely an ATG.

One question: which other fighter during the last 20 or even 30 years could've done what Toney has done? Fighting his competition from MW up to HW, 80+ pro fights without ever getting stopped or close to getting stopped?

Toney was also considered by all experts to be the #2 P4P fighter in the world in the early 90s, when most divisions were packed with talent. If it hadn't been for another exceptional fighter in Pernell Whitaker, he would've been considered the #1 P4P fighter during that time.

Toney is a two-time Ring fighter of the year, with 12 years in between (1991 and 2003). And he deserved it.

Let me now adress some of the criticisms that were posted here in this thread:

-'His fight with Vassily Jirov was close, and some people had Jirov winning the fight.' Even though this fight was close and Jirov gave a great effort, it was a clear win for Toney. Fights can be close but still have a clear winner. Those few who scored that fight for Jirov don't know too much about boxing, as his aggression was mostly ineffective against Toney. 'Jirov can be compared to Ice Cole'. Well, he was considered to be one of the best CWs of all time right before he faced Toney, and he most probably was, regardless of his (Jirovs) disappointing career after he moved up to the HW division.

-'Toney beat an absolutely ancient McCallum'. McCallum had a pretty good career for 5 years after losing to James Toney, and he gained another world title during that time. He was slightly past his peak, but he still had a lot left - plus he was one of the most durable fighters that stepped into the ring during the last 20 years.

-'Toney lost to Montell Griffin twice'. Most people had Toney winning both these fights, though they were close. That said, he lost a close one to Drake Thadzi (yeah I saw that fight) and should've lost another close one to Dave Tiberi. But being undefeated is overrated these days, nearly all the ATGs of the past had some losses too.

-'He should've (could've) fought Collins, Eubanks, Benn, Michalczewski, rematch with Jones jr.'. Eubanks and Benn wanted no part of Toney, everyone knows that. Michalczewski never wanted to travel to the US, and by the time he (Michalczewski) faced top competition (from 1996 onwards), Toney entered his 'dark years'. Steve Collins could maybe have faced Toney early in his career. Toney was screaming for a rematch with Jones Jr. for years, but it couldn't be made because Toney moved up in weight and Roy Jones never wanted to give him one (to be fair Roy Jones never had to give him one either..). I think that, considering the level of opposition Toney has faced over the years, it's inappropriate to criticise him for not having faced absolutely EVERY name fighter that was around - especially when it wasn't his fault that he didn't face them.

 

Yes. Absolutely yes. He's top 50 for sure.

 

I'm a huge Toney fan and i always wonder what his resume would have looked like had he not had that gap. He has 80+ fights right now, he would have had over 100 easy.

 

up until the jones fight toney earned genuine kudos and was on his way to being an ATG super middle. he was always active and was wonderfuly skilled. there was no shame in losing to jones. I agree he beat enough name fighters until that point to be under consideration for All Time Greatness.

From the jirov fight onwards however he was cheating. he had to be. we must discount his achievements from that point on and this harms his legacy -what ever way you look at it.

 

Both very good comments, guys. :deal Agree with both. Not that I think they're only good because I agree with them...Although if I didn't agree with them, I wouldn't have mentioned them.

 

Hell yeah!

 

Can't see how anyone could score the Jirov fight for Vassily. Theres aggression and effective aggression.

Beating on a guys shoulders and not landing any clean shots as someone dissects you with right hands isn't going to win you a fight.

 

He won world championships/tittles at 160, 168, 200 and heavyweight.
He is a tough head to head match up at 160 and 168. He is in my opinion the second best ever at 168.
He has his flaws, but all things considered James Toney is an All Time Great.

 

I don't like the fat donut munchin' dick-head.

And he's a nobody as a HWt.


But I do rank him as an ATG on account of his overall legacy.

 

Yes, he is. No doubts for me.

 

Vitali was caught in the amateurs and never since. Wlad has to undergo olympic style drug testeing for every fight. His German TV contract demands so. It's highly unlikely he wouldn't get caught if he abuses under these circumstances.

Very funny that you ignore Jones on your list despite him being caught. Have you prove for your claims that Tyson, Golota, McCline and Briggs abused? If not: **** off.

Toney was caught. Twice. Fact.