Roy Jones as a Middleweight champ

Jones was fighting at MW ony a few months before beating Toney, had beat Hopkins and numerous contenders. MW Jones was arguably at his peak. Many young greats beat more experienced champs, Jones had a load of amateur fights and physical ability leagues above Monzon

 

I didn't post it for any reason other than that it is very obvious Hopkins wasn't yet the fighter he would go onto be, regardless of the outcome, loss, win or draw. I could post him knocking out some tomato can if you want to.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7w7k177Sv8[/ame]


A good fighter, yes, but far from a master-boxer. This is a master-boxer:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/363710/bernard_hopkins_vs_felix_trinidad_round_9/

Considering that you claim to be an all knowing boxing expert, it truly surprises me that you can't see the obvious differences in style and skill level in Hopkins between 1993 and 2001. Or maybe your bias for Jones and against Hopkins is clouding your vision.

You could say that Hopkins turned it down but you could also say Jones overpriced himself by asking for 60%. Hopkins would have had to go up 2 weight divisions to fight Jones.

 

Footwork is one area where Hopkins really did improve a lot.it was average at best against Jones, plodding forward with no idea how to cut off the ring.

 

Most fighters become technically better with age, they also become physically worse, losing stamina, workrate and speed. Hopkins was in his physical prime against Jones after that he became physically worse but technically better. No way is a 35yo man, in his PRIME, maybe his technical skill has peaked but make no doubt he is slower and not as fit as when he was younger

Most fighters who have longevity switch their style up, its easier to make less mistakes when your throwing 1/4 of the punches you used to punch and relying counter punching.

Many on this forum assume this is a result of technical improvement, which in part it is down to. HOWEVER it may also be down to the fact Hopkins was getting old and needed to counter punch and pick his shots better as he could not maintain the epic workrate and aggression he managed as a younger man. I'd say its a combination of both of these 2

Many technicians start out as more aggressive seek and destroy types like Hopkins, MAB being a good example. It doesnt mean the faster fitter seek and destroy version is necessarily the worse version

Jones is being criticised for fighting the 28yo seek and destroy version of Hopkins and for some reason think the slower less aggressive counter punching version would do better. I'm sure if the first Jones-Hopkins fight happened after Hopkins beat Trinidad many would claim BHOPs was past it at 35

 

Hopkins however did not become physically worse until his 40's. He looked like he could go 20 rounds in 1997 and came on strong in the end against Trinidad in 2001.

Being in your late 20's doesn't necessarily mean you're at your best. We have seen young sensations declining after their mid 20's and we have seen master-boxers improve with age like fine wine.

At the time of the Roy Jones fight, Hopkins had only fought actively as a professional for 3 years and had fought B-level opposition like Gilbert Baptist and Wayne Powell. He was a young, hungry contender, surely a test for Jones but Hopkins would not have been a great middleweight fighting the way he did around the time he faced Roy.

I'd say that Barrera too was likely better in the early 2000's than in the mid 1990's. He could still go to seek and destroy mode against suitable opposition, but he also acknowledged that this wasn't going to work against the likes of Hamed, much like it didn't against Junior Jones. He became a complete boxer, not a fighter overwhelming their opposition with strength and youth.

 

Come on GreatA, 'did not become physically worse until his 40's', do you truly believe a man doesnt go downhill after his mid 20s? Why was he slower? Why at 38-39 did he throw about 10% of what he threw as a young man? Why could he no longer KO opponents

Do you pick 28yo Hopkins to lose to Jermaine Taylor and give up rounds to DLH? I certainly dont, this is from when Hopkins still lived upto his title of 'executioner'

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBlGxqquQvI[/ame]

MAB certainly did box better after the jones loss, he managed to combine defense and offense far better. I thought he was at his peak from around Morales 1-Hamed, but dropped off after that

 

I think so as well, but not good enough to ever beat a prime Jones. You had to have more weapons than Bernard has. Hes never been a big puncher, and he never had the counterpunching speed and ability to ever beat Jones. Ill be more suprised if Hopkins outboxes Jones as opposed to knocking him out this weekend.

 

I don't think he was significantly slower or less active. I think against Trinidad he realized that he couldn't be a constant aggressor because Trinidad punched far too hard, much like Barrera against Hamed. He couldn't afford to take any chances. We saw what happened to Joppy.

As I said, he didn't decline physically until his 40's. By the Taylor fights, he no longer had the stamina he used to and was also drained from making weight. I don't see Hopkins having any stamina problems around the Trinidad fight. I think Hopkins was at his peak in his early-mid 30's.

Watch Hopkins against Echols not long before he faced Trinidad:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwHzOtNTKuw[/ame]


I also suggest to watch the Joppy fight and the Holmes fight which are not on youtube. He kept up a good pace. In Barrera's case watch him against Jesus Salud for example, he could still overwhelm opponents, but he could also be the boxer and a counter puncher because he was a complete fighter by then.

 

I don't necessarily think he ever beats Jones either but considering that Hopkins doesn't have exceptional speed nor power, what are the attributes that he truly excels in? His skill and experience. I do not think he was as skilled or as experienced as he later would go onto be at the time he faced Jones. Jones fought a Hopkins who was not yet exceptional in any category. Thus I don't think we can call it a great win for Jones. It's like fighting Roy Jones without the speed.

 

Thats a bit of an overstatement in my opinion.
A lot of times people forget Jones didnt just stay stagnant at the same level either. He improved his game quite a bit and became even more elusive as he moved up to face bigger men.
P4P experience for experience it was a good win not a great one, but certainly more significant than a lot on this board try to make it, especially when you consider Hopkins continued to win for another 12 years.

 

I can agree with that entirely. It was an overstatement and a physical attribute like speed or power can't directly be compared to learned technique, but I'd say that Hopkins relies on craftiness as Jones does on his athleticism. Neither would be exceptional fighters otherwise.

 

I never thought we will agree on that one. Good work, mate :good

 

Well...... if we pretend that Jones retired after Tate I'd say Monzon was better...... but he didn't.

MW, SMW, it's still Middleweight to me.

 

At SMW he beat Malinga KO6, Toney W12, Pazienza KO6, jumped up for a fight at LHW and beat Sosa KO2 then went back to SMW for two more fights including Lucas KO11.

Would have liked Jones to have fought the likes of Benn, Eubank, McClellan, Nunn, Michalczewski, and a few others but for whatever reason he didn't. I'm convinced that Jones would have beat most of them, maybe all of them. Again, I'm no fan of Roy jones Jr. at all.

 

Sugar Shane Mosley skipped over JWW but I'd pick him over almost any man who ever fought at JWW.

Hopkins skipped over SMW.

M. Spinks, Moorer, and Jones skipped over CW but does that mean that anybody who ever fought at CW was a better CW?

Toney didn't do much at LHW but had he stayed at the weight longer I'm sure he would have been as good at LHW as he was in any other division he fought in. Some people act like 175 was poison to him... but 168 and 190/200 was fine. It wasn't the weight... it was just not the best time for him in those days.