Roberto Duran VS Shane Mosley at 135

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Stonehands, how you think Mosley's and Duran's records are comparable is just beyond me. If you're trying to be objective and dispassionate with respect to your fighter, you've gone too far; it's not nuthugging to point out that the guy is clearly a class above Mosley. Duran's worst best wins are better than Mosley's best best wins!

 

Duran

 

I think he's underestimated overall, skillset was superb.Whenever a very good fighter gets put against Duran, there always seems a substantial contingent ready to use the Dejesus fights against him, as if The puerto Rican was some 2nd rate fighter.

Cervantes was a huge 140lber and a great one too, that fight was somewhat like Monzon vs Napoles in size difference and style, despite the smaller gap in weightclass.

Dejesus main weakness was probably his strength and size.Not a fighter that would have done well moving up imo.Mosley could well bull his way through him eventually.

 

Not as quick as he was against like likes of Rivera, De La Hoya, Taylor, etc.

 

I have Duran is ranked squarely at #5 all-time, p4p.

Shane isn't near top 25, which is as far as I've gone.

I do in fact see some posters on this thread as over-zealous on behalf of Duran. Their almost casual insistence that Duran would wipe the floor with Shane at LW or Vernon at WW tells me so. People are confusing p4p greatness with H2H match-ups and are using the same criteria that they'd use to rank a fighter as they do to decide who'd beat who. It doesn't work like that.

I am not using "comparable" to mean anything more than "able to be compared." If I believed that Mosley's record is as great as Duran's, I'd have said so. As it is, I don't believe it and wouldn't say it.

Perhaps I should have used "parallel" but I suspect that it still would have raised ire, so I'll clarify:

Mosley's lightweight reign was built on relative non-threats. Duran's was obviously more impressive, but it is not near Leonard's reign and it was not worthy of Duran. At age ~28, Duran had not established his reputation on the corpses of monsters. He established it on how he dismantled mostly good, but not great boxers with an assist by his savage image. The image and his elite, p4p ranking (not just 'greatest LW' talk) converged after the Leonard win and was affirmed by Moore, the stand against Hagler, and Barkley. Shane, who has some good wins, and some competitive losses, is building his legacy now. He is approaching Floyd as his "legacy" fight.

Both Duran and Shane established themselves after they moved up in weight. Though Mosley seemed to have had starve himself to make 135 more than Duran. Mosley was 139 as an amateur. Duran was a smaller man.

Mosley, who is probably a natural JWW, defeated De La Hoya (at around the same age that Duran was in Montreal. This is NOT to say that Oscar and Ray are equals!) and Margarito when both were at their supposed best. Margarito was a big, strong, heavy handed taller guy reminiscent of Barkley. Shane and Roberto were 37 when they got this big, late career win.

Shane also did what you should do against second-tier guys like Mayorga and Vargas and solid guys like Collazo. The loss to Cotto was very close -a win was within his grasp and he has at least as good as "excuse" as Duran did against Leonard II/Benitez as to what the problem was.

And now he's fighting Mayweather.

--do you still deny the comparability/parallels between the trajectories of Duran and Mosley's careeer?

 

I think he is one of them! Mosley W12 or W15

 

No-one's making these claims. 90% of the posters on the thread have predicted Duran to win a clear decision in a competitive fight, no wiping the floor.

I've already pointed out to you that H2H/stylistic points are more or less irrelevant. Mosley is a brawler who likes a guy to engage him. Duran is a brawler who likes a guy to engage him. The biggest difference is that Duran is just much, much better. This is not dismissing Mosley; it's simply recognising who the better man is.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Duran has some excellent names on his record - Marcel, De Jesus X2, Buchanan. He looked as unstoppable vs. De Jesus III as he ever did barring @ Montreal. He dominated the vast majority of most of his opponents into brutal stoppages. He reigned supreme for 7 years, racking up 12 defences. There you have it all - H2H ability, longevity, quality of opposition beaten, dominance. At a very wild guess on my part, that's probably good enough to have him ranked as a Top 20 ATG in itself. If Mosley had retired at 135 he wouldn't even be a Great.

You're moving the goalposts now. You started off implying that Mosley's and Duran's records were close-ish in terms of merit, and using that to try and establish that Mosley was in Duran's league, would have pushed him very close etc. Now you're supposedly talking about the "trajectories" of their career, rather than quality. If you meant to talk about trajectories all along, then I don't know why ou brought it up. Who cares if two fighters have similar shapes of career in a H2H match-up?

Even on that point, it's hardly remarkable that two fighters spent their youth at a particular weight, moved up when necessary to fight for the greater recognition/money, then fought past their prime and picked up a few losses along the way. That's what most fighters do.

What "excuse" does Mosley have? I have no idea why you think losses to a prime Ray Leonard and Wilfred Benitez are comparable to a loss to Cotto, regardless of the circumstances. Any remotely decent version of Duran would have taken Cotto apart.

 

Okay now look at what you just said...

"No one's making these claims."

"90% of the posters on the thread have predicted Duran to win in a competitive fight."

---90% is not everyone and 10% is not "no one."

I said "some." One poster said "Shane has no chance." I just noticed that you yourself said that it makes for a "thrashing."

"No chance," "Thrashing," "Wipe the floor" --what's the difference?

First of all, any point that says that stylistic points are more or less irrelevant to H2H match-ups is off.

The rest of the post is further evidence that you are over-zealous against Mosley. Duran is much, much better at dealing with guys who come at him? You have nothing to say about Shane's speed, power, height, reach, or comparable physical strength? Is that "more or less irrelevant" too?

And I don't disagree in the least. But you missed the point.

Read my original post and you will see the argument as to why I believe that Shane should not be dismissed as a LW competitor against Duran.

No one's moving goalposts. I got off my point in order to respond to posts stating that Duran's resume is superior to Mosley's and therefore he'd beat Mosley. I don't like the reasoning. It's casual. Neverthless, I see comparability in their careers. Duran's LW conquests were beneath his capability. Shane's was too. Duran demonstrated his elitism against bigger men and later in his career. Shane is demonstrating his greatness later and against bigger men and later in his career.

Both are aggressive. Shane's athleticism is on par with Duran's and some might say superior, which can compensate to some degree for the obvious diffference in skill. Both have good power. Both have very solid chins. Both's talent/skill allowed them to compete against bigger men well into their 30s.

Duran is a legend. Shane is a near-great fighter who will become undeniably great if he manages to defeat Mayweather.

I don't know of a lot of fighters who spent most of their twenties at LW and went on to whip welterweight champions. Not even Benny Leonard could do that. Before Duran did it, it hadn't been done since circa 1906.

Scar tissue in the nose and he allegedly was getting 40% less oxygen. Surgically removed after that bout.

I didn't call those losses "comparable"... I said that both fighters have losses and wins against the best of their respective eras.

And your statement about Duran's ability to take Cotto apart is irrelevant. Margarito destroyed Cotto (I'll assume it was legit for a moment). Cotto defeated Shane. Shane whipped Margarito. Hearns destroyed Duran. Barkley destroyed Hearns. Duran defeated the conqueror of his conqueror.

Styles make fights!

I'll shout it from the mountaintop. The caliber of the LW reigns of both fighters is less important than the assets that both fighters bring to the ring.

 

Fantastic thread Stone, a great read.

 

Duran for me. Ultimately Mosley will advance too much, being offset and outfought inside as the bout progresses. I don't underestimate Mosley who is somewhat of a physical specimen at the weight, and operated in a way that shows that to a tee, but when they are standing off one another, whether it being for a rest or to reset to gain leverage, it's not a contest imo. Mosley does not have a great jab, and at distance Duran is pin-point, especially with the right hand before closing distance. That said, Mosley is fast at getting in there himself, lunging with rapid left hooks or roundhouse rights. But in the exchange, which is clearly where this one ends up round after round, i don't see how Mosley doesn't get outclassed. Mosley is good at countering with powerful blows though and that is what makes this an interesting fight. Duran on points for me, 12 or 15.

 

Posters who favour Duran narrowly:

Posters who favour Duran clearly:

Me

Posters who favour Duran widely:

Posters who favour Mosley:

It is FAR from consensus that Duran "wipes the floor" with Mosley. As many people have predicted a Mosley win as have predicted that.

That's not what I said. What I said was that it was irrelevant in this instance since they have broadly the same style. Mosley likes guys that come towards him (you said), and so does Duran. Neither guy holds the cards stylistically.

Shane has tremendous speed, power, height, reach and physical strength. Duran does too. There is little to separate them on any of those counts. In the absence of any big advantages for Mosley in that respect, I look at Duran's better timing, more advanced and varied offence, in-fighting skills, experience and vastly superior defence as being the deciding factors. What's so controversial about that?

I'm not dismissing him. I just think he is the worse man, plain and simple.

I agree.

"The obvious difference in skill" is not trivial. It can hugely swing a fight for one man.

Their records are not so important when it comes to H2H match-ups, as you yourself pointed out.

Styles aside, Duran is a far better fighter than Cotto. Prime Mosley is probably a slightly better fighter than Cotto.

 

You ****ing nuthugger! :nut

 

Ah,the memories.Thank you,man:good