Rocky Marciano picked Patterson to beat Liston

Read a piece from Howard Cosell's first book.he was quite friendly with Floyd,a few days before the fight,Patterson said to Cosell,I wonder how it will be,when I come out?Cosell remarked in his book,Patterson didn't wonder too much,as he already had a disguise for when he made his exit.I read that Patterson's share of the purse was the biggest ever for a fighter at the time.One quote was Floyd was the only guy in the place,that got his money's worth that night.

 

i never said Valdes would beat them. In fact I dont think he would have beaten them. All I said was he could have beat them with his punchers chance.

Old Fogey, I understand the comparison with Satterfield...but satterfield still had 4" in height on burns.

 

No. Heinz Neuhas, Hurricane Jackson, Pat McMurtry, Harold Carter, Mike Dejohn were all top 10 rated when Valdes beat them.

I would disagree. Valdes defeated 3 Ring Magazine heavyweight contenders the year before fighting Liston. He also climbed back up to # 2 rating in the world in Feb of 1959..the same year he fought Liston. Rahman did not have anywhere near that type of success before fighting wlad.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucXgHJ0s8qg[/ame]
This is pretty much the version of Valdes that liston fought. Still pretty dangerous.

 

Old Fogey I would pick Braddock over valdes, but I do not think Braddock would beat Machen or Folley. do you?

 

braddock put a peak joe louis on his ass at the end of his career and was good enough to beat tommy farr in his last fight. Jimmy also beat a good john henry lewis. could machen and folley also deck joe louis, beat a peak baer, farr and a good john henry lewis?

 

1. Valdes--Thanks for the clarification. The problem with this puncher's chance is that I see Valdes only as a middle-row puncher among historical contenders. Okay, he stopped McMurtry and I take it McMurtry had gotten into the Ring top ten. But I would still see Pat as one of the fringiest of fringe contenders. It was the three-knockdown rule which got Jackson. Fair enough, but that rule didn't apply in championship fights. All sorts of historical contenders--Tom Sharkey, Frank Moran, Fred Fulton, Luis Angel Firpo, Charley Retzlaff, Lou Nova, Turkey Thompson, Lee Q Murray, Lee Savold, Bob Satterfield, etc, displayed more ko power in my judgement than Valdes, without listing the really top men like Peter Jackson, Sam Langford, Harry Wills, Elmer Ray, Archie Moore, etc.

Machen also displayed more ko power in my judgement than Valdes.

2. Burns had a long reach though and I am not certain his shortness benefits Valdes. I think Valdes might lose power punching down like that.

3. If D'Amato was frightened of Valdes, I think it was one of his dumber moves. Perhaps Valdes had some sort of puncher's chance against Patterson, but if he did, any really top man like Machen or Folley or Cooper had a better one. If I were managing Patterson, I would have jumped at a Valdes fight in 1958 if this could be sold to the public. How or why Valdes got to be the #2 contender AHEAD of Machen who had destroyed him, or Folley who beat him badly and hadn't lost in years except to Cooper in a tight one, is beyond me. Valdes seems to me the perfect overrated contender waiting to be plucked as the very ordinary Powell proved in early 1959. Powell doesn't beat Machen or Folley, or even Cooper, on any day he ever saw.

 

Liston beat Valdes in Valdes' 70th pro fight, he only fought once more... KO7 Brian London.

Valdes had beat Ezzard Charles 6 years before. As for the win over Charles... it was Charles 94th pro fight and some felt Charles deserved the win.

Since the Charles fight Valdes had been beat by Archie Moore, Bob Satterfield, Eddie Machen x2, Zora Folley, and 4 other lesser known fighters.

The win over Valdes was good, but not great.

 

Okay, although I wouldn't rate McMurtry as much. His dad built him up with careful matching--an over-the-hill Charles, an overweight Bobo Olson, a name from long ago Charley Norkus. He actually blew a decision to professional loser Willi Besmanoff. His one really interesting performance was being able to outpoint a green Chuvalo. Got to give him that.
In fairness to Valdes, he had a pretty good run in 1958 against the second-tier guys. Carter was probably viewed as a very impressive scalp in 1958. He had been highly rated and did beat Besmanoff coming back. He would never win another major fight after the Valdes loss, though. If I were rating, I would probably have put Valdes about 5th, but certainly not ahead of Machen or Folley, and I would also rate him behind Cooper.
Frankly, though, by this time Valdes was not that much of a threat to the top guns, Patterson, Johansson, Machen, or Folley. He was a worthy opponent for Liston on the way up. A proven veteran who peaked well short of the top men. I would rate him about on par with the Lee Savold that Marciano fought with Valdes' perhaps deserving a narrow career edge because of his upset of Charles.

 

I think choklab on post #80 states the case for Braddock pretty well. I will be interested in your rebuttal.

Myself--Braddock got his shot against Baer and took it. Folley was chinny and I think Max gets to him and perhaps Braddock does to. Machen I think at his best beats Braddock. I can see Machen being champion if he gets to challenge the right man at the right time and certainly being a tough opponent for anyone anytime historically.

 

"The win over Valdes was good, but not great."

This about sums it up.

 

Okay. I have no disagreement, except that Valdes was the FORMER #2 contender. He was no longer rated when he fought Liston, having been ko'd by Powell and decisioned by Alonzo Johnson, two rather ordinary fringe or sub-fringe contenders.

Valdes was a worthy opponent for an up and coming Liston, but such a victory is run-of-the-mill for a coming champion, on par with Dempsey over Morris, Louis over Uzcudun, or Marciano over Savold.

 

Fair enough. I think we can agree, though, that Neuhaus, McMurtry and Carter were nowhere near the top men of that era. In other words, they beat a string of cans, got a rating, stepped up, lost, and never got back. The important name opponents of Valdes are in the loss column almost every time.

Spin it any way you want. He just got knocked out by Charlie freaking Powell and lost a decision to Alonzo Johnson. One fight away from retirement. He was an old man for a boxer. Liston did well by knocking him out early, but i would consider the win "decent" at best.