Kid Norfolk ... Forgotten All Time Great ...

Newcastle News, Philly Aug.30.

"Harry Greb fought Kid Norfolk at
Pittsburgh last night. The Post and
Dispatch gave a shade decision to
Greb, while the Gazette-Times gave
the verdict to Norfolk. Norfolk
knocked down Greb in the third
round. The battle was viciously
fought."

 

"Anyone got a pick for Tunney-Norfolk? "

I'll take Tunney.

If a Greb-Langford match was ever discussed, or close to being made, I never came across that information.

 

Ive never found any first hand accounts of a Greb sparring session with Jack Johnson. That doesnt mean it didnt happen but Ive looked pretty hard. It supposedly happened in Chicago at Kid Howards gym sometime after Greb became champ. Its fairly easy to trace Greb's steps through Chicago and in doing that Ive never found mention of the session.

There was never any serious discussion of Greb fighting Langford. Why? I dont know other than their paths just didnt really cross much. They fought on cards together or close together and Langford trained a few guys to face Greb but thats the closest they were ever mentioned. I think part of the reason is that by the time Greb was really being considered a HW threat (1918 or so) Langford was rapidly losing his relevancy. He was being talked of as old and fat and sometimes bashed in the press for sparring session like fights against some of his opponents. That combined with the fact that Greb was constantly struggling to get recognized as a hw threat himself probably made a match between them sort of pointless. If Langford one it would be said he beat a middleweight, if Greb won it would have been said that Langford was a has-been. Throw in the fact that Langford was black and Greb didnt HAVE to fight him to gain any recognition and you probably have the reason why.

The first Greb-Norfolk fight was split down the middle in terms of newspaper decisions. there were seven newspapers in Pittsburgh at the time. 3 voted for Greb, 3 voted for Norfolk, and the fourth ran an article which was written by one of the three journalists who voted for Norfolk so I throw that one out because it would mean we count his vote twice. The referee of the fight stated publicly that had he been allowed to render a decision he would have voted for Greb. Following this statement one newspaper attacked the referee in print stating that such a statement was tantamount to rendering a decision and thus in violation of the state laws governing prize-fights. The second bout was described as being a very rough, dirty fight, hardly resembling a boxing match. As I stated before, Greb was at the very height of his wild partying and came into the ring fat and out of shape weighing a career high weight of 174. At the end of what would be the final round the bell rang and Greb turned to go to his corner. Norfolk hit Greb in the back of the head and Greb turned around enraged and attacked Norfolk setting off a small riot. They were seperated and Greb was DQd but it was noted that throughout the fight Norfolk had fought as dirty as Greb and was indeed the fighter who initiated the altercation after the bell with his late punch (whether it was intentional or not was up to speculation, some thought so some didnt).

I personally dont think Tunney ducked Norfolk. Not blatantly anyway. For much of his career Tunney was protected. There is no doubt about that. His management was carefully picking and choosing his opponents and especially when he was taken over by Billy Gibson he had some very powerful interests looking after him and bankrolling him which helped steer close decisions in his favor, keep away fights he might not have won, and get fights that maybe he didnt deserve. That being said, I dont ever recall any talk of a Norfolk-Tunney bout. Part of this is because few people, even when Tunney was "American LHW Champ" were calling him out, he simply didnt have a big name or a big reputation. He wasnt particularly interesting to watch, and no one would have predicted he would go on to beat Dempsey. He just wasnt very compelling. I mean we have all heard the stories about how he never got respected by the press and was too brainy etc. Thats true to a degree but it also allowed Tunney to fight up until the last few years of his career in relative anonymity picking and choosing his opponents and then sneaking in the back door to a championship with Dempsey based largely on three fights: a win over the middleweight champion, a KO over a very old Tommy Gibbons who was already considering retirement, and a win over an old and completely overrated Georges Carpentier. By that time Norfolk was basically a non-entity in the title picture.

 

Did I write a fairy tale that I am not getting royalties on?

 

That is only 5 rounds of a ten round fight so it is still pretty close. Greb was dropped.
Interestingly a local paper (Grebs hometown too) scored it for Norfolk, add to this his color and it suggests it was at least very close.

 

Today people seem to forget that Kid Norfolk was fifteen to twenty pounds heavier than harry Greb in their bouts...The amazing thing is that Greb could even hold his own with the much heavier Greb..IfRay Robinson split two fights with a much bigger Archie Moore, we would be extolling Robinson for even making the bouts close, let alone winning...We tend to forget that Greb was usually much lighter than his hall of fame opponents.
Incidentally ,while in Stillmans Gym in the 1940s,I saw the old retired Kid Norfolk, in the audience...At that time I knew nothing much about his place in boxing history...But I do now....

 

I guess those would be the conflicting newspaper reports that seem to tell slightly different stories about how the fight progressed. The fact that there were seven newspapers in the city at the time and they pretty much were split down the middle, leads one to believe that there was some difference of opinion. I have four of those reports--three gave the fight to Norfolk and one to Greb. Bottom line it was a close fight.

I am a bit disappointed Klompton that you would make such a statement regarding me. I don't think I have ever discredited Greb in any way in order to bloster Kid Norfolk. As far as agendas are concerned, we all have them. You happen to have a Greb agenda--whether you want to admit it or not. Look at the way you defend his poor performance in Boston by claiming he was "at the height of his partying ways". He may have been, but I could just as easily say you are making excuses.
You fail to mention that in the 1921 battle, Norfolk was a bit heavy, coming off a layoff, and sporting plaster over his left eye to protect a healing cut--a cut which was opened by Greb in the seventh round and may have had something to do with his "comeback" in that bout. Also, no one talks about Norfolk being in better shape for the 1924 bout, where he weighed 172(to Greb's 172) seven pounds lighter than the 1921 bout. More weight is not always a good thing. The Boston papers also said Norfolk was winning the fight handily, and Greb had been repeatedly warned for fouling.

Bottom line is, I respect your knowledge about Greb and other fighters of the era and the research you have done--show me the same respect.

 

It also says a lot about Tommy Gibbons who Ko'd Kid Norfolk in 1924...In 1922 Tommy Gibbons Ko'd about twenty fighters in a row,until he was thrashed by a 15 lb.lighter Harry Greb...
Gibbons at his peak was in my eyes a top 5 LH..In 106 fights Tommy Gibbons lost but THREE fights...To Greb,and when Tommy lost to Tunney,at the age of 34 in his lkast fight...
I saw an old film of Gibbons against Jack Bloomfield in London, and he looked tremendous, in his prime...On youtube I saw it awhile back...

 

Kevin Smith is one of the most knowledgeable boxing historians i have ever met, and happens to be a great guy too. I would choose your words more carefully.

 

What amazes me the most is this question ?Why would Harry Greb @160-to 165,blind in one eye fighting every week, in every hamlet town, the biggest and toughest fighters in the world, regardless of color, strenght.or ability? Why, was it the money. the challenge, or just a lust for combat, that drove Harry Greb to his fearless and unique place in boxing lore ?
This question always stymied me...
Any insight to this question fans ?

 

I'd like to know the answer to that question myself, Burt. Money is always important, but we can't say it was just the money in Greb's case. Remember the report of a possible match-up between Greb and World Light Heavyweight Champion, Battling Siki when Greb was quoted as saying "I will fight Battling Siki anywhere, anytime, for any reasonable amount of money". For a man to fight and win 45 times in one year alone speaks volumes. Not only did he fight and wins these fights, this was in 1919 the same year he got married and his daughter was born. The same year he was seriously ill twice. He must've loved what he did. Sugar Ray Robinson was quoted as saying that he didn't enjoy boxing, that it was just a business with him. Now, Ray must have loved it somewhere in him to fight as passionately as he did, but not like Greb, who fought with broken bones and blind and so on and so forth.