Are Chavez and Pacquiao on the same "tier"?

Agree on all counts except the accuracy part PP. Chavez' right hand was tremendously accurate even when thrown as sort of an overhand, very probably his most accurate and best shot.

Anyway, my take on the thread is that Pacquiao is greater, but i'm inclined to think Chavez might win a fight between them myself.

 

The problem with chavez is that his resume is based more on quantity rather than quality. Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard are two modern fighters with great quality in thier resume, but with only half the amount of fights.

People can criticize pac as much as they want, he accomplished more and its hard for people that grew up watching chavez to admit that.

 

I think it is the way he has dominated these 'B-grade' guys, like with Cotto a bigger man and one of the better fighters at Welterweight, he completly dominated and stopped him in a very impressive performance. Same with Hatton.


I agree with TBooze that the sport has become a bit 'easier' in more modern times. But what Pacquiao has achieved is great in any era, its not a hypothetical of 'if he would have done it in any era?', its the fact he has actually achieved this and was linear champion at most weights he was champion in.

No fighter has done what Pacquiao has done IMO, it is a monumentous achievement in boxing. And also to go along with this amazing feat he has some excellant wins. The domination over Barrera is truly astonishing and the wins over Morales, Marquez (although controversially), Cotto, Hatton and De La Hoya really add to it.

I would have Pac the tier above Chavez, even though I think very highly of Chavez.

 

G, I know Pac was coming from smaller weights but do you think if a prime Chavez fought Barrera, Morales, Marquez, Hatton, DLH, Cotto and Clottey that his record would be any WORSE than Pac's?

I don't. In fact, I think it'd be better.There's no one there I see beating Chavez or giving him a controversial fight.

With that ASSUMPTION (I acknowledge it's an assumption) in mind, I think that whilst what Pac has achieved is great and he has looked great in accomplishing what he has, it's not something that say Chavez wouldn't have done just as well, if not better in my view.

 

How do you think Pacquiao would have fared in these fights:

- Rocky Lockridge at 130
- Juan LaPorte at 130
- Meldrick Taylor at 140
- Frankie Randall at 140

 

I think all four would be tough fights for him, but I think he wins them all.

I think the best guy to upset Pac amongst Chavez's opponents is probably Edwin Rosario. Roger Mayweather would be dangerous too, but his chin would most likely fail him.

I know Pac can take a hit, he's proven it, but to me he hasn't faced Edwin Rosario type power and he has been hurt by lesser hitters (Marquez for example).

 

That said, I'd still make Pac a favourite against Edwin, but would I be surprised if Edwin takes him out? Not really.

 

So really, Pac could have achieved a similar record to Chavez's had he faced the same comp, so there isn't all that much between them h2h, at least that's what I've inferred from your last couple of posts on here. I agree that Chavez is more aesthetically pleasing and technically proficient, but I don't think he is all that far ahead in terms of raw effectiveness. If Rocky Lockridge and Juan Laporte could give young Chavez hard fights at 130, who is to say that Marquez and Morales couldn't at that weight as well? If Taylor outfought Chavez for the vast majority of the fight, who's to say Pacquiao couldn't as well? Whatever way I look at these two guys, I think they are closely matched. Both are flawed, but both were very effective and ultimately got the better of those they fought.

 

That is completly fair enough. In fact I agree with you, but combine these wins with Pacquio's unique achievements and I think the achievements give him the slight edge over Chavez.

I know Chavez MAY have beaten these guys and done better IF he was Pacquiao's size, but the fact is he is NOT Pacquiao's size and did NOT achieve these things, thats really the edge for me.

Chavez is the better fighter but Pacquiao is greater.

 

Given Pac's struggles with Marquez and Morales, he might have dropped a decision here or there, but on the whole, if I ask myself "ok given a h2h fight with any of the guys Chavez beat, would Pac beat them?", I'd say I favour Pac in every bout.

To me, I'm more separating them on how I think they'd go with guys they DIDN'T fight. For instance, I see Chavez beating the likes of Mayweather, Arguello, Pryor, Ortiz and Napoles too (at 135).

Whereas I see Pac losing to all those guys.

Furthermore, I think Chavez would beat Pac. (I'll discuss this below.)

So in a way, I'm saying based on my opinions (not facts) I think Chavez was a better fighter.

They probably would, Chavez though, always found a way to win, and I think he;d find a way to win against those guys too, especially given the fact that they were naturally smaller than him.

With that said, I don't see the likes of Marquez or Morales having the chin to stand in there and bang with Chavez effectively the way Laporte did - it just wouldn't happen. And I don't really like their chances of outboxing Chavez either.

I think they fight somewhat differently. Mel basically stood in there and flurried with Chavez. I don't see Pac doing that. I'm not sure he wouldn't come out just as damaged if he did. I think Pacquiao will try to move and box more, but I don't think, even now, that his defense is good enough to escape the Chavez right hands and left rips to the body. I see Pac landing less, and getting hit quite a bit, which would make the fight closer, and probably swing it in Chavez's favour.

I think they are close, but I think Chavez was just a little better. Not saying you're unreasonable to think otherwise, but that's the way I intuit it.

 

Good to see you posting again SS.

 

Its not so much that Cotto or Hatton are great fighters that singly boost Pacquiao into the upper echelon of recent ATG's, its the fact that he so utterly destroyed them.

A easy 12-0 sweep against Clottey, a two round demo-job on Hatton, absolutely battering Cotto despite the fact that he did things like laying against the ropes and letting Cotto unload.

You can't get much more casual then those wins. Yes, none of those three are great fighters but they are serviceable, world class, B+ to A level fighters.

If Pacquiao had been a WW/LWW his entire career and had such wins, he'd still be a world class, awesome fighter who would be looked upon favorably in H2H match-ups.

The fact that he tore through weight-classes the way he did and took apart fighters so much larger then him is what makes his recent wins so much more impressive.

 

pac-meldrick maylor would be giving people seizures like pokemon.
:nut

 

Thanks mate :good