How great was Ray Leonard really?

redrooster,

Ray Leonard was a very good boxer. Quick reflexes. Good power. Good chin. Good skills.

When he's put in the upper echelon of the welterweights he is being overrated.

Getting dominated by a lightweight with many years under his belt tells us a lot about Leonard's standing among the all-time great welterweights.

He was cleanly outboxed over 12 rounds by an overtrained welterweight. That just adds to our knowledge for comparison purposes. It doesn't matter much that he prevailed in the Hearns fight. We could all see in that fight what Leonard lacked in the skills department.Beyond welterweight, his reputation slides.

He definitely didn't win his fight against an old, faded Hagler, and he took real drubbing against Norris and didn't look very good against Hearns, either.

All in all, Leonard is rather low on my all-time pound-for-pound list and somewhere towards the bottom of the all-time top 10 welters.

Great thread. I think it is important to discuss Leonard's career so that we can cut through the unrealistic fandom crap.


Peace, Street Lethal

 

I don't think I'd even put Leonard in my top ten welterweights. He got whipped by a true genius, Duran, who came up in weight - and he barely beat Benitez & Hearns, two fighters I always thought were slightly overrated themselves. Leonard just didn't have a long or illustrious enough career at welterweight to sit alongside champions' champions like Jose Napoles or Emile Griffith.

 

Leonard was a great fighter from the olympic to the pro's and had some great wins at welter

 

Leonard ran from them all. He's rated as one of the best fighters of the 80's because he was ineffective. If Hagler was so great he would have smashed Leonard to pieces, but he didn't. The way Rooster puts it, Hagler was as shot against Leonard as Ali was against Holmes.

Sugar Ray Leonard beat Benitez, Duran, Hearns and Hagler. But he done it with smoke and mirrors.

He stepped into the ring against Hagler having had one fight in 5 years, and gave the flat-footed Hagler the run around.

Leonard wasn't great, personally I would rate him the 50th greatest fighter that ever lived. Norris was the best ever, he ranks alongside Duran as the greatest fighter since 1980.

Norris against Whitaker, don't make me laugh. Norris would have knocked him out inside 2 rounds.

 

Yeah, he got beat by a true genius. Even though Duran was struggling to make lightweight for many years, and eventually grew into a full blown welterweight after 2 years at the weight keeping busy and sharp with non-title fights. If you look at the physical stature of both fighters squaring off in Montreal they look about the same size. But who cares anyway.

Leonard beat Duran in New Orleans, but lets not get carried away with such a victory. No shame in beating a former lightweight the same size as yourself. Duran quit anyway, so Leonard's fine moment means nothing.

 

I never meant same size in height, you crazy. I meant same size in body mass.

Thats like saying Holmes was bigger than Tyson, when he clearly wasn't. Holmes in his prime was smaller than Tyson physically, even though he was taller. I even explained it all with Duran growing into the weight. Any fan with half a brain would have known what I was talking about.

 

Thats one thing which fools many, size difference. Just because one fighter is taller than another, doesn't mean to say he's bigger physically.

Leonard never had any physical advantages over Duran when they fought, height and reach, thats it. But when your talking about weight, even.

Shane Mosley was a former lightweight, but when stepped up to welterweight he wasn't a small man who looked anywhere near out his depth against other natural welterweights.

Duran going up against Leonard was no "david against goliath"

 

You seem to regard size differently to the rest of us Robbie. If Cotto put on 100 pounds of junk you would refer to him as the same size as Lewis. Me, i just can't see it.

 

Size difference, when a fighter grows into a division. Duran moving up welterweight and Hearns likewise to middleweight.

Not Leonard going up against Lalonde or De La Hoya going up against Hopkins. When De La Hoya stepped onto the scales he was 1b lighter than Hopkins. When you see them in the ring, wooow another matter. He looked two divisions below Hopkins.

My take on size difference is rather accurate and spot on IMO.

Not like Thad Spencer who thought I was comparing them in height LMAO.

 

You have really have made me laugh before bed.

 

Tho Duran made a great Welterweight i don't believe he "grew" into the division. He simply let himself go a bit and stopped the gruelling regiman that allowed him to make 135. Granted he had to work to make 135, but the man was at his strongest ever there and showed no sign of weight drainage or weakness whatsoever. Duran could still make 135 after a full decade of professional boxing, some 64 fights at the age of 27. One would hardly call him still growing? He followed no particular weights, training or dietary program to rise "naturally" in weight. Of course he was still a great and effective fighter there due to the various (brilliant) assets he brought to the table. He might look hard at the weight, he might be strong at the weight, but the simple fact is he lost just a little bit due to not being a fully natural 147 such as SRL. This is one of the reasons his achievement in beating SRL two divisions up carries such magnitude. Great fighters such as Duran, SRR, Hearns and co can move up and still be compelling, but the fact remains in most situations they lose that little bit. I remember you debating Whitaker had no size advantage over Nelson, but the simple thing is he did, whether they weighed the same or not. I'll add that Hearns and Arguello were more fledgling types, also tall and lean and not as fully (not even close) matured physically as Duran when they ventured up early career.

Duran no matter which way we look at it was a totally natural lightweight. SRR a middleweight. Nelson a Featherweight.

 

Exagerrated or not, the similarity was there.

 

SRL was a beast

 

Your windups are too obvious to be funny ,try being a little more subtle when you cast out your fly.