Is there another sport where a consensus of experts thinks the players 50 years ago..

The mentality of the amateur system is complete crap. That's why you have so many amateurs struggling when they turn pro to adjust to the Pro style of fight. Soon, if it keeps it up, if it gets watered down more with other trainers leaving, that mentality sliding to that of the amateurs, you may start to see Pro fights look like amateur fights for 12 rounds.

They need to bring back the Old School of fighting in the amateurs.

Example:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NABqIWMCvI0[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i27ZM-gsrLQ&feature=related[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88qNlf7cohk[/ame]



The other thing: Experience. Fighters used to fight a lot back in the day. I can't remember who exactly said it, maybe Carmen Basilio, but he said that a fighter must have a fight at least every 3 months, no longer, to stay on top of his game. That's what he felt based on the Old Way of doing things. Jimmy Jacobs, from advice from D'Amato, also mentioned this when asked about why they were fighting Tyson so much. If you want to do your job well, do it often. Tyson as well mentioned this later as to why he was having trouble (after he left his original team).
Freddie Roach also mentioned you can't be a part-time fighter and be at your best.

 

I am not "trained" in weightlifting but can press 10x what Frazier failed to press once. Either he had a severe shoulder injury or was just not that strong at anything EXCEPT throwing a left hook non-stop for 15 rounds, which he was immensely strong at.

In regards to Tyson, he also lacked foot-speed (Holyfield reveled in being quite a bit faster) and there is no proof he had the best assets of a running back which are field vision and anticipation for holes in the line. Picking him to be a pro running back is a 1,000,000 to 1 option. There were hundreds of tremendous, proven collegiate talents who failed to make the NFL during the time of his boxing career. I suppose, with his unproven and imagined talents at the sport, he would leapfrog them. Rubbish.

FIghting is fighting. It is not football or basketball or track.

 

True enough, but as with boxing...you take into account what era they were boxing/playing in. Infact that makes the similarities even more alike, the same arguments are made on here every day about newer fighters being too quick and strong for the old timers, just as in football.

And it may be a team game, but the majority remember certain players over whole teams (with some exceptions)

 

How do you know how much Frazier can press?
And how much can you press?

 

His shoulders weren't built up to go above his head. There was no reason for it. It is all mid-range to lower strength. As a kid, he pushed things forward, picked things up, and not above his head.

However, there is the natural strength part I can agree with. Tyson for example was said to have lifted an insane amount for his age in the bench press.

Tyson lacked foot-speed? atsch
No he didn't. He was known for his foot speed in his youth. That foot-speed allowed him to be affective against the bigger guys in order to get in. When he stopped training for it the right way, his legs went down hill and he became less affective. Holyfield actually noted that he thought Tyson's legs didn't look quite fit or had that spring to them in the first match. He thought they were better for the second.

Even his hand speed, it was noted about his decline by the time he got to Ruddock. Again, it's about training it accordingly to peak levels. There is a natural ability for it but you still have to train to get it to what it could be to peak levels.
D'Amato used a certain system, The Willy, to increase hand-speed as well as reaction time with other drills.

Even Pro athletes in sports, even track, have to continue to train for it.

You also have to train for it to increase it. There are drills you can to improve this. He is also in a sport that doesn't have a need to use sprint drills all the time. It's a fight, not a sprint.

Tyson's visions was incredible when trained for it. He saw the wholes quite fine when he was under Rooney/D'Amato and doing those specific drills.

Tyson's foot-speed post-prison. 3 years in jail and he is supposed to be the same, are you serious?
Did you see what a 3 year layoff did to Ali's legs and he wasn't rotting away in prison.

What I'm saying with Tyson and the NFL was that his build is that of a RB. Yes, we don't know if he would have been good but you also don't know if he wouldn't. He never trained for it. Never played it like you need to in order to become good.

He was a natural athlete. That's what you need first.

That's what people are talking about with the NBA and NFL players. Natural athletes that go into those sports when young instead of taking up boxing.

Your muscles, your brain, adapt to what you are in.

 

Sports program from back in the day.

He wasn't much of a swimmer...

And he was poor in lifting weights

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPk2zl5s6xM&feature=player_embedded#!

 

Boxing footspeed is vastly different than American Football footspeed. You're confusing the two. Ali, for one, had great footspeed in the ring but mediocre on the pitch or track. Holyfield noted that in participating in other sports with Tyson at the Colorado Springs Olympic Camps that he was neither fast nor co-ordinated, utterly out of his element in games every child learns to play in a basic fashion.

Yes, Tyson put up sick numbers weight lifting at a young age with no training. Frazier, on the other hand didn't. I'm an over the hill jock who goes to the gym a few times a week and routinely military press 180 pounds in sets of 8. I'm average for my gym. There is no way a pro football player doesn't do much more weight many more times. Frazier, for some reason (and I would not discount some sort of old injury) could not do much less once.

Look, as far as the NFL, you can take a kid who runs a 10 flat 100 meters and can bench press the moon (Michael Bennett, Travis Jervey...). It still does not mean he can play football. The examples of such specimens under-delivering in the NFL are uncountable at this point, though I think everyone of them played for the Raiders at some point. That sport, like boxing, possesses its own set of indigenous skills beyond, though inclusive of, basic speed and strength. Those skills really do not cross over to boxing in the slightest.... and vice versa.

 

If memory serves, C, the show was Battle of the Super Stars, 'n Frazier was unable to press 210.

 

Tyson never learned to play any sports. He got into boxing, that's it. His "sport," if anything, was mugging. So he never had any "coordination" built for other sports. It's best to start young. Tyson was obese until he went to jail as a kid and picked up boxing. His coordination was built up in boxing and that's where his athleticism found out.

Holyfield however, if I remember correctly, played Football as a youth.


Again, with Tyson, he never had any experience in sports until Boxing so you really don't know.

But he did go from an obese kid who had breathing problems to an elite athlete in boxing.

He had that natural ability but it didn't come out until it was trained. And he trained specifically for boxing...not anything else.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfGO3pr6rq4[/ame]

The reason why he ran, to build cardio; cut weight; build the legs.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUDogb3zO0U[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6zlaIl0yh0[/ame]

All of the above was the result of specific training drills drilled into him non-stop.


His legs speed was noted as a Pro. You don't move as fast as he did, specifically in a shuffle, without having speed. Not with 215 pounds on your frame. Strength and explosive speed. Muscles in his upper-body that allowed him to move fast were there in his legs. His upper-body however were going to be worked more, if they were, because he is a boxer, not a runner.

 

I can't remember exactly what it was but he failed.

Seamus, may remember.

I do think Tyson was naturally stronger all around. He was noted for his incredible physical strength when Bobby Stewart got him first. He had muscles like a Man; strength like a man.

 

I think by now it has been proven that this anomaly is not exclusive to boxing.

so where to go from here?

 

Is he as good as Henry Shefflin though?

 

I think Joe Canning will surpass them all. Too bad he's in a **** team.

 

I do. And it still would have lost to the German team that beat the English during the Christmas truce of 1914. :hey