Leonard saying so doesn't lend credibility to the theory. Ray needed to feed his large ego and seemed to get off more on thinking he'd gotten over on somebody than the phyiscal task of beating them. Hagler wasn't cherry picked. People were fearing for Leonard's health if not his life. As for Jones/Ruiz, what was Ruiz going to do to Jones? Jones mobillity nullified Ruiz's best offensive weapon clinching/greco-roman wrestling. The guy had no conventional offensive attack versus heavyweights, how the hell was he going to hit Roy Jones?
Hagler was past prime and had slowed. Leonard himself said that he decided to call him out when he saw in the Mugabe fight how he had slowed. It is a fantastic victory, don't get me wrong, but so is Jones over Ruiz once one looks at it objectively. And lets' not forget that Jones was well into his 30's. About the age when Leonard got schooled by Norris. That old one. Well, there are those who will tell you Benitez partied before Leonard and was in poor shape. I tend to disregard both. Toney was outclassed from the opening bell. Clancy for one said during the fight (in rf 5 I think) that possible weight drain woulddn't have been an issue so early on. It is funny you don't mention anything of Jones never making the MW limit again when you made such fuss about Toney above. If Leonard had truly beat Duran I would have agreed, but it was still an open fight when Duran for some reason quit. Sure, Leonard was a couple of points ahead, but it was still quite even. No one had landed anything substantial and neither looked tired or hurt.
You serious? So Jones great mobility is a reason why his victory shouldn't really count that much? Ok, wait a sec while I scratch Clay-Liston from the books. All this contorting to get away from the fact that it is a hell of an achievement for a guy starting out at MW to beat a bonafide HW contender, a guy naturally outweighing him by some 50 lbs. If it's such a trifle it must have happened dozens of times right?
Just to show that I have no agenda, let me say that I prefer Leonard over of Roy and I have spent many hours defending his victories. But Jones' victories probably gets even more underrated by many. Outclassing the nr. 1 p4p gets waved away with "Toney was weight drained" by people who'd never dream of mentioning "weight drain" when discussing Robinsons' TKO of LaMotta, and scoring a shut out over a world class HW was not much because he was "custom made" for Jones. Funny then that so few other former MWs picks out a suitable 220 lbs HW to easily beat.
Of course, but Leonard beat a far better fighter than Ruiz, was far more inactive than Jones, and was also moving up in weight. A far, far superior victory in my judgment, but then again I would think so, I can only laugh at those who say, "Hagler was past prime". So what!?!?! Leonard hadn't been in a ring for three years, he had no business beating a 30% Hagler let alone the version he did beat. ...Oh god. :blood Fair enough, no weight drain, I'll give this one to Jones simply because. You want to know what's funny? That we're even comparing these resumes. Well on his way to winning handily on the cards, I'm not prepared to penalize Leonard because he was doing such a great job at humiliating his opponent that he made him quit. Roberto Duran is among most people's top 15 fighters of all time, and this was months after his finest ever showing. Infinitely greater than Jones victory over Hopkins.
Leonard overcoming odds of 4-1 against in beating a man who hadn't lost in 11 years despite not having fought a competitive bout in three years is often waved off as "Hagler was past prime". Of course he was, but that's canceled out by all of the other factors. A better win than anything on Jones resume. Jones gets ample credit for who he did defeat, and what victories he did amount, but Leonard beat better fighters. Non-debatable.
I don't argue with this. Actually, I have argued it myself a good many times. I just think that Jones outclassing a solid HW contender who's some 50 lbs above Jones' own best weight is at least as good a win. Slightly better, I'd say.
This is quite a bold statement considering the cards was pretty close at the time and there still was 8 rds to go. I don't like it either. But the simple fact is that Duran was still well in the fight and just quit. I think it's more a blemish on his record than a star on Leonard's. Hate to say it, but that's how I see it.
It's a very good win, but John Ruiz? Marvin Hagler? Really? Toney went up and did the same thing to the same guy.
Yeah fat slow Toney beating Ruiz really put that win into perspective. Ruiz was ****. That said i think Jones is underrated on this forum, though i rarely ever feel the need to talk about him.He's played out.
And if you think I had to search high and wide for these quotes think again, it's practically every single response from pages 1-2. He isn't underrated...he's overrated.
Ruiz is 60 lbs heavier than Hagler. No one is comparing them p4p. Am simply staing the size difference was much, much larger between Jones and Ruiz. Should that perhaps say something for the quality of Jones' easy win over Toney? Also; Duran, a 30+ former LW, was competitive against a better version of Hagler.
Just that John Ruiz is not a particularly noteworthy scalp, not comparatively to a Marvin Hagler, anyhow. Operative word being "competitive". "Ray, who cares if you beat Hagler after a three year lay off, that bum Duran was competitive with that guy in his prime". :blood