Haye Can't Lead, Therefore He Can't Beat Wlad

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by PetethePrince, Nov 13, 2010.


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  1. sammydavisjr

    sammydavisjr Guest

    haye will be easy work for the Klitschkos, literal target practice. haye's lunging lefts and rights will be picked off easily. haye will become disorganized with that jab in his face and will have no answers except for crazy shots from the outside which will be futile. easy easy easy fight for either Klitschko., hayefaker knows it too and will never sign the contract. just wait for the next wave of excuses about the negotiations. it's gonna be farcical.
     
    sammydavisjr, Nov 13, 2010
    sammydavisjr, Nov 13, 2010
    #16
  2. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    Lifetime ban bet he fights a K brother in 2011?
     
    PetethePrince, Nov 13, 2010
    PetethePrince, Nov 13, 2010
    #17
  3. techks

    techks ATG list Killah! Full Member

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    I don't see Haye beating either bro and I will root for either one if he fights them. I see them picking off Haye and eventually finishing him.
     
    techks, Nov 13, 2010
    techks, Nov 13, 2010
    #18
  4. Cool2009

    Cool2009 Member Full Member

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    haye will never fight the klits

    get over it
     
    Cool2009, Nov 13, 2010
    Cool2009, Nov 13, 2010
    #19
  5. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    Just re-watched it. Even in the fight, Haye puts his head sort of forward kind of on the center of attack line and then Audley jabs he slips and launches with his patent counter right hand over the top. This started everything. He flurried Audley to the ropes. Haye feinted and caught Audley with his right hand low and caught him with a 1-2 and that was history.

    Won't work against Wlad he better fight Vitali.
     
    PetethePrince, Nov 13, 2010
    PetethePrince, Nov 13, 2010
    #20
  6. Jack

    Jack Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Just because he didn't, it doesn't necessarily mean he couldn't. Against Valuev, you're right, he didn't, but why would he? It made far more sense to sit back and pick his shots. Against Ruiz he was more aggressive and he pressed the action quite a lot. However, going back to his cruiserweight days, he did lead more often. Fragomeni, Bonin, Macca, Mormeck, he showed he can lead.

    What's interesting, is that Haye may actually lure Wlad into being aggressive. He isn't a natural aggressor either and relies on his opponent attacking first to get his shots off, which is why he uses his jab so often. If Haye can make Wlad come at him, I think Haye will win.

    Honestly though, Haye's best shot is to stay away. If he does this, Wlad will struggle because Haye's foot speed will negate his jab. Then Haye needs to rely on guerrilla style attacks and, honestly, if he hits Wlad, he'll win.

    The fight at range suits Wlad but if Haye can avoid getting knocked out there, he will get inside and he will be able to knock Wlad out.
     
    Jack, Nov 13, 2010
    Jack, Nov 13, 2010
    #21
  7. haglerwon

    haglerwon Official GTMSBT Marquez Full Member

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    You raise an interesting point. Actually, I'd always thought that he stood a better chance against Wlad; not based on styles, but based on the fact that I think Wlad's chin is eminently crackable in a way that Vitali's isn't, and Haye's power feeds into that.

    Styles-wise, you're probably right. Vitali's got a more 'counterable' style (or at least a style that lends itself to being countered better by someone who's shy to lead), and his age may play a part, too.

    I didn't ever think Haye could win on points, though; I always felt he'd have to knock one of them out, and that's where the 'more frangible jaw' calculation came in.

    It's probably all moot though; I'm not convinced he beats either of them, and that assumes he's going to fight them at all.
     
    haglerwon, Nov 13, 2010
    haglerwon, Nov 13, 2010
    #22
  8. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    Jack, he didn't lead for the majority of any of the fight you listed. I guess you could so he went all out against Barrett but he looked sloppy in that affair. Against Ruiz, he counter-punched and set traps. You can still be first when your on the back foot. But Haye's not aggressive, and doesn't like to go first. I imagine he doesn't want to ever get caught being too aggressive. I mean the fact he was fighting off the back foot against the soft punching Fragomeni says it all. You can't fight on the outside trying to counter against Wlad. Just can't... you're doomed to try.

    It's mildly interesting because Wlad gives opponents no chances. He'll slowly move forward and try controlling range and dictating the fight just with his jab. That's not going to aggressive and Haye won't be able to lure Wlad. That's the entire point... Haye loves to lure you in but he just can't fight Wlad like that. Unless he blitz him early. Against Vitali he has a much better chance I think.

    This really sounds like a longshot. The Valuev method. Essentially, Haye barely won that fight and if he did it wasn't convincing.

    That's the point Jack. Haye does **** inside and doesn't have much comfort inside. He needs to develop this game. He needs to feint, double jab, and throw body to head shots. If he tries to counter Wlad's jab with a right hand he'll get ****ed up I'm telling you. Wlad's right, jab, and left hand will control him and possibly KO him.

    Vitali is more active, more a risk taker and has a low-hand thats just too low. Haye has the speed and athleticism to exploit this lean-back left hand style of Vitali. Vitali's reflexes and age are slowing him. I'm not enthralled with his stamina like some because his opponents are punching bags. At the same time Haye's stamina is a huge question mark. He punches hard enough to mess Vitali up enough to stop him or even win on points, though.
     
    PetethePrince, Nov 13, 2010
    PetethePrince, Nov 13, 2010
    #23
  9. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    I've been there too. It's interesting, style-wise there are many factors, advantages, and disadvantages.

    The thing is, I'm convinced Haye's power and speed are enough even against Vitali because Vitali hasn't been hit much and let's face it he just doesn't like getting hit regardless of how good his chin is. He'll present himself to Haye more and that will give Haye more chances because Vitali does come to throw punches more... even if he doesn't like to "fight."

    Bingo

    True. I think his chances are more than just puncher's chance. Against Vitali that is. I'd say he's got a decent to live shot because his right hand should come into play at some point.
     
    PetethePrince, Nov 13, 2010
    PetethePrince, Nov 13, 2010
    #24
  10. LONGROB

    LONGROB Guest

    I disagree completely. The way to beat Vlad is by countering him. That's how Corrie Sanders beat him. Countering Vlad is suicide? Why do you say that? Vlad does nothing but jab until you are a spent force. You have it all wrong. The key to backing Vlad up is to jab with him, and to also throw power shots when he jabs to keep him from beating you to death safely. Countering him is really the only way at this point. Pressuring him, and trying to get close won't work because he'll just hug you to death all night.
     
    LONGROB, Nov 13, 2010
    LONGROB, Nov 13, 2010
    #25
  11. haglerwon

    haglerwon Official GTMSBT Marquez Full Member

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    I think you're missing the subtlety of Pete's point. Haye doesn't really jab well, and he doesn't lead or initiate well. In a battle of standing there jabbing back that leaves him at a disadvantage because ... Haye is small compared to Wlad, and as long as Wlad's careful (Is he ever anything but?), this will allow him to keep Haye at range. It worked for Sanders because he's got a good jab and was the same size. He wasn't at a disadvantage by mirroring Wlad and throwing back exactly what came at him. Because of the style and size difference, Haye can't really fight that way, or it's doubtful he'd do it as successfully given how Wlad's improved since then.
     
    haglerwon, Nov 13, 2010
    haglerwon, Nov 13, 2010
    #26
  12. Casamayor122

    Casamayor122 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Once Audley stopped moving around the ring and started to wait for Haye to come to him on the ropes it was over.
     
    Casamayor122, Nov 13, 2010
    Casamayor122, Nov 13, 2010
    #27
  13. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    Longgrob, it's pretty much what Hagler said. I think you have to attack Wlad to keep him from throwing back. Notice Wlad doesn't like to counter-punch. Brewster pressured him, Sanders throw multiple flurries at him and got Wlad to back up. Haye can't simply stand in the center of the ring trying to counter on the inside over the top of Wlad's jab. That's suicide. He needs to initiate and move forward and keep Wlad backing up so Wlad's getting rattled and not throwing punches back. You can't out-chess Wlad but you can overwhelm him.

    When does Haye ever do the bold? Jab his way and throw power shots? If Haye did this Wlad would be rattled and moving back and NOT throwing much. Of course if Wlad throws back that's getting into the type of exchange Haye would want. Don't see him making it that kind of a brawl of a fight. That's hardly Wlad.

    And let's be honest, Wlad was hunched down, being more aggressive, and giving Sanders more chances. He's much more polished and in control these days.
     
    PetethePrince, Nov 13, 2010
    PetethePrince, Nov 13, 2010
    #28
  14. Scottish

    Scottish Khan(t) take a punch Full Member

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    Haye is going to knock Wlad out with counter punches he doesn't see and early, Wlad has struggled against fast hands with power, added to the fact Wlad knows Haye has power and will be scared to death, the dude is scared to get hit, scared of his own chin.

    He is scared to fight thats the god damn truth the only time he steps on it is when the opponent is basically collapsing on his own, he should stick to fighting the fat Americans who come for their paycheck not to win.
     
    Scottish, Nov 13, 2010
    Scottish, Nov 13, 2010
    #29
  15. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    Not the same Wlad now

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xNoXYgi7o4[/ame]

    Wlad wouldn't give Haye these sort of opportunities.

    Sander is also a little more tenacious close up. Hopefully Haye gets more of a nasty streak by then.
     
    PetethePrince, Nov 13, 2010
    PetethePrince, Nov 13, 2010
    #30
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