Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

:good me 2

 

This is how I see it as well. Frazier's 10 best wins is a bit deeper than Rocky's best 10 wins. If Frazier retired after he beat Ali, the entire heavyweight top ten would be different. Both Ali and Foreman had two legacy wins wins over Frazier. If Frazier reitres in March 1971, these fights would have never happened. This would bump Formean out of the top 10, and possibly even move Ali out of the top 3.

 

Frazier was still a fighter with only 27 fights at that point (to early ) and there were a lot of people who felt a great stamina hard puncher like Louis,Marciano,Dempsey (Frazier type) would be the guy to beat Ali but not too many people felt Frazier was as good as those 3. A lot of Frazier's greatness was based on the first Ali fight but he still only had 27 fights at that point

 

:good :good

 

Walcott and Charles have no chance of winning the title in the 70s. Ali, Frazier and Foreman would all crucify them. They would be good contenders like Norton, Patterson, Quarry, Ellis, Lyle etc. Overrated 50s. Charles a true light heavy who would struggle against Bob Foster who both Frazier and Ali murdered. Walcott an old man who would never have a chance of winning the title in the 70s. Ali was the first guy to stop Bonavena. He was a tough fighter.

 

I rank Joe a bit behind Rocky but there's no doubt he'd have rated ahead if he'd gone undefeated after Ali. The Foreman mashing definitely cost him a few places.

 

Well to answer the thread,

I think Frazier would have had an imcomplete career had he retired right after Ali, too short a career to really give him his due.

He would be held in higher regard than he is held in now as he would be given the benefit of the doubt in fantasy matches seeing how the Foreman fights, and 2nd and 3rd Ali fight would have never happened.

I mean could you imagine what people would have said about Tyson if he stopped fighting after Micheal Spinks? 35-0 31KOs 7 title defenses

 

As long as Ali was alive and able to communicate Joe Frazier would have no peace if he retired back in 1971. Imagine an angry Ali standing in your garden at 4 every morning calling you a yellow Uncle Tom who only beat me because "the man" bought the judges. Don't kid yourself that this kind of thing didn't happen between 1971 and 1973.

Poor Joe only a man with genuine inner peace could put up with Ali pursuing him before he laced on the gloves again. As it was back 1971 Joe wasn't rich enough to quit, come to think of it Joe still isn't rich enough to quit!

So why would Joe retire in 1971 when even a blind man could see that there were millions to be made by fighting Ali again, just not straight away. When Marciano retired the division was in the doldrums, there was no big paydays within easy reach. Thats why Rocky could walk away without losing face. That option was not available to Smokin Joe.

 

Jerry Quarry is a better win than jersey joe walcott in my opinion. Rex Layne, Joey maxim and Elmer Ray beat a prime walcott, why cant quarry. Walcott is 10-12 overall against ranked fighters, yeah thats not so impressive is it. I also believe that at heavyweight, quarry would beat archie moore.

 

Walcott would always have a chance of wining the title. It is inherant in his style.

 

Walcott cleaned out the top 10 of his own era to get a shot at the title. We have to recognise him as being better than Quarry even if he could loose to a fighter of that calibre.

 

This is true. Quarry, Bonavena, Quarry, Ellis, Lyle, Shavers and Foster would all have been undisputed heavyweight champions in other eras. Also, no heavyweight that didn't fight in the 70's would stand a chance at winning the title during that era*. Lineal champions like Tyson, Holmes, Marciano, Lewis, Dempsey and Louis would share the same fate as Quarry, Bonavena etc in the 70's; being contenders but lose all big fights because they're fighting 70's heavyweights. They would still rank higher than they do now though, cause they get to lose to Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Lyle, etc.


*Unless you're 6-0-1 Leon Spinks.

 

Shavers would have failed at being champ in ANY era imo. The guy had a near shot Ali in front of him and failed. Spinks was able to do what Shavers SHOULD have done.

 

No, I don't think so. The key difference would have been Frazier's near loss to Bonavena in their first meeting. The granite jawed Marciano was never close to getting beaten in that way, never rocked as Ringo stunned Joe.

Beyond the fact that Rocky had nearly twice as many wins overall, I believe that yet another major factor would have been the rise of so many prominent heavyweights in the early 1970s. It may have been speculated that Frazier retired to avoid the upcoming crop of contenders. Naysayers may have also claimed that Ali rushed into the FOTC prematurely, with the expectation that the U.S. Supreme Court was going to rule against him on the draft issue.

In Marciano's case, there were really no more worlds to conquer after knocking out Moore. Nobody was in position at the time to be considered a promotable challenger by the public, and Archie was the most colorful figure Rocky could have defended against. With him dispatched in such convincing fashion, it was truly time to retire. He couldn't be accused of avoiding anybody.

After Frazier repelled Ali, many expected him to be able to dominate the heavyweights as long as he cared to. Foreman was widely expected to be another strong victim for Joe, the way the aggressive but fragile skinned Stander had been. However, after Frazier had been out of boxing for a couple of years following the FOTC, revisionists would have come out of the woodwork, claiming that Joe retired to avoid Norton, Shavers, Lyle and Foreman (among others). Marciano's reputation was at no risk of getting hampered in that way.

 

Marciano's place in the annals of boxing is secure and his is the unique achievement of retiring with a perfect record after beating the best of his time. No, Joe Frazier dosen't compare to Rocky Marciano, not at all.