"Joe Louis of '40 vs. Muhammad Ali of '67" in a time machine/fantasy bout. Who wins?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by MRBILL, Feb 1, 2011.


  1. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Addendum:The Joe Louis who kod Max Baer kos Billy Conn in eight rds or less. We ,the fans, were in AWE of this Joe Louis...
     
  2. Jear

    Jear Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Joe Louis is the most text book perfect heavyweight ever, great combination puncher, great at cutting the ring off, great power, quick hands.
    Muhammad Ali is anything but textbook and this is why he beats Joe Louis.

    Everything Joe does is by the book, his attack and defence is to combat what is expected, Joe tilts his head to the right behind his glove when he jabs to shield from the counter jab, Ali throws right leads straight down the middle.
    Old Ali had the ring cut off by Foreman, forget rope a dope, he beat George by beating him to the punch.
    Joe had quick hands and punched in combinations but Ali has a significant reach and height advantage to go with ridiculously fast feet in 67. Joe would never get in rhythm and range long enough to land more than one punch at a time.
    Joe waits and counters and against 67 Ali the fact that he is unorthodox and throws lead rights and lead hooks baffle Joe and break his rhythm.
    Ali was deceptively strong and clinched well also. I dont see him having too much problem tying Joe up if required

    Ali makes doing the wrong thing work.
    Joe can tell what he would do if he was fighting Ali, but he never fought anyone like Ali. Foreman, Liston, Patterson all had gameplans too, but as George said until you hopped in the ring with Ali you didnt comprehend just how fast, strong and good the man was.
     
  3. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    If Ken Norton could give Ali hell in their fights,Joe Louis would without doubt finish the job. Whatever Norton could do ,Joe Louis could do better. Louis's jab was like a battering ram,and this is what Norton used on Ali, and Louis hit twice as sharp as Norton, and was VERY strong for his 200 pounds.
    And Ali early on would, had to feel, Louis's hurting punches. He would have to run, and as Louis famously proclaimed, " he can run, but he can't hide "...
    The two fighters that gave Louis great trouble, were Doug Jones and Ken Norton,both were a pale imitation of the early prime, Brown Bomber....
     
  4. the cobra

    the cobra Awesomeizationism! Full Member

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    We're talking about prime versions of both now Burt, as you said yourself, so no post-exile. It's not as if Louis wasn't troubled by plenty of guys through his run either, lesser guys than Norton.
     
  5. Jear

    Jear Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Norton didnt fight 67 Ali
     
  6. ripcity

    ripcity Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uCpJ0bm6RI[/ame]
    This is the second Louis/Walcott fight. Styleistictly Walcott has a lot in common with Ali. He clearly frustrates Louis as would Ali. This is also a well past his best version of Louis. He's able to catch up to Walcott. Grnted Ali is faster than Walcott, but Louis in this situation is faster than the Louis who fought Walcott. Louis should be able to catch up to Ali late in the fight. Once Louis caught up to an oppoent they were dead in the water when it comes to a great punch vs. a great chin. the punch is almost always going to win. Their first fight went to the final bell with Louis taking a split decision. This shows that to get the win Ali is going to need help from the judges.
    In my first post on this thread I said Ali takes the first 6 rounds. For him to win he has to do this. Ali cn beat Louis but he has no margan for erorr.
     
  7. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Cobra, I'm getting confused by what Ali you or other posters want. Some say pre '67, others say post 1967. Let's be real. We are talking of the best Joe Louis against the best Ali. There is no other way to match fighters...Either you take the Ali pre 1967 exile,who had trouble with a Doug Jones or a Enry Cooper, or the post exile Ali,bigger and slower, but stronger, who a Ken Norton with his left-jab ,and determination gave Ali hell in their 3 close, close bouts, the facts remain that the Joe Louis at his trip-hammer best, circa, Max Baer, Schmeling #2, would have eventually caught up to and hurt Clay/Ali, and finish him off. I say this with all sincerity, that Ali,would have been nailed with a LOUIS COMBINATION, that Ali never experienced before, and as one
    physician stated in those days after a Louis knockout, " the human body was not designed to take the volleys of Joe Louis ", Unquote. And I agree....
     
  8. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Billy Conn comes to mind here.
     
  9. Swarmer

    Swarmer Patrick Full Member

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    Billy Conn was a much better fighter than Ken Norton.
     
  10. Joe E

    Joe E Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Right, Burt. Prime Ali had trouble with Chuvalo, and Mildenberger, demonstrating that he could be had. As you have already pointed out, it isnt a matter of getting hit by Louis as it is getting nailed by Louis. Taking not just 1 or 2 blows, but a volley of blows coming from all directions. Louis was also as quick with his hands as Ali. What many seem to forget is that in order to engage an opponent one has to set their feet. Ali, with his posturing and dancing would eventually have to set his feet and fight if he wanted to win. He isnt dancing for 15rds. As for the myth of slow, shuffling Louis, right. Louis could box in the middle of the Ring or pursue his opponent forcing them against the ropes or into a corner relatively easily.
     
  11. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Hmmmm... Pure boxing? Okay... Better and rougher fighter? I'm not sold on that.... Also, Norton was a helluva lot bigger and stronger than Conn ever was.... Norton also had an asset in being awkward.... His style was harsh on boxers, but his psych and chin was fragile against bangers....

    MR.BILL:hat
     
  12. Swarmer

    Swarmer Patrick Full Member

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    No, i mean dude accomplished more in his career, had a better skillset, was just a better fighter. In fact i think he'd probably beat Ken too.
     
  13. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I can't see Big Norton with awkwardness and power losing to a 175 pounder with skill, but not much bang power.... Norton had issues and is often sold short here on ESB...

    MR.BILL:deal
     
  14. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Joe E,right U are. Boxing is all about styles. The Joe Louis of the Max Baer,Max Schmeling #2, was an incredibly COORDINATED punching machine with piston -like handspeed. That Louis, I am convinced could never have been beaten by any boxer in history by an Ali, Tunney ,Johnson type. He had to eventually caught up with them and ko each one. The only two fighters , because of their hand speed, and fast starting crunching power who had the best chance against that prime Louis,was Jack Dempsey ,bobbing and weaving ,short in close power, and young Mike Tyson, who had the early murderous uppercut power, to hurt and possibly stop the prime Louis. Not Ali, Jeffries, Liston, Foreman,Conn, Tunney etc. Louis eventually would get
    inside their punches and ko them. Watch again the Max Baer/ Louis fight .
    Louis with those whirlwind left hooks, so fast, so powerful was what still amazes me...No boxer bouncing around on his toe's ala Ali, would dare get set to hurt this Louis,as this Joe Louis hit just as fast, with twice the crunching power....Only A lithe fast punching Toledo Dempsey, or a murderous quick starting young Tyson, had a shot to beat the Joe Louis of 1935 IMO...
     
  15. Bill Butcher

    Bill Butcher Erik`El Terrible`Morales Full Member

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    Ali of 67 was the best HW that ever laced up & should be favoured vs anyone including Louis IMO.

    Ali UD15 Louis