Was Liston-Clay a fix? I don't think so

The easiest way to throw a fight is to complete your prescribed rounds,
then claim an injury so you don't have to come out and get battered or take a
dive.
Don't forget, its not only the bet on the fight you can chose, its also the round.
Like 25-1 for Cassius Clay to win by a 7th Round Knock-out.
Of course, you'd have to pull your punches, like missing round house rights,
left hooks, and making believe your punching hard to the body (ie; 5th Round)

But still, the ICP (Liston Group) stood to make more money in the re-match.

 

Swifty Morgan,,,,,,,

The Vegas Line for the Liston-Clay fight in Miami was;
Even Money for a Sonny Liston Knock-out within the first 5 Rounds.

 

The man had rarely, if ever, been to school. He was uneducated. He started learning a little in jail, in his 20s. Or so his press releases said.

You won't find anyone on this earth who can read and write and understand math without having spent a reasonable amount of time learning how to do so.
Actually a good number of people who have been to school don't understand percentages !
I don't think they all qualify as "mentally disabled" though.

The men of the Nevada State Athletic Commission probably viewed him as a gorilla before he'd even opened his mouth.
And besides, Sonny Liston was a street-wise ex-con, who knew to 'play dumb' when under questioning !

 

Yes, Sonny had virtually no education.
And thats not a knock on him, it was based on his horrible up-bringing.
Of course, street-wise, but not book smart.

What Sonny knew was money. Is the deal good.
I would imagine, nobody figured on the fiasco that happened after the first fight,
with almost all of the State Boxing Commissions refusing to sanction the return bout.
Somebody knew something, and it spread like 'wild-fire'.

 

The mobsters who ran boxing during its Golden Age knew the sport, but were rarely in the boxer's corner.

Yes, Cassius Clay won the first bout, but it was by a shocking, but frustatingly
inconclusive technical knock out.
The second fight was pure and simple. The bets were in, he was supposed to lose.
Sonny didn't want to get beat up to make it look good, as he was not up for more
than a round of punishment.
So he went down in the First.
Same fee, less pain.

The insiders knew there was more money with a new face, as Sonny was part of the
earlier regime.
There were no big money fights left with Sonny, and it became inceasingly difficult to
stage fights with him, as the State Boxing Commisions basically banned him.

Even if he had beaten Ali in Lewiston, Maine (in a legitimate fight) there was no place to go. Would the public agree to or buy a third match.
Where would they stage it.
Sam Michael, the local promoter of the rematch had promotional rights to a 'Third Fight', only if Sonny had won.
if it happened.

 

True.
The whole thing was set up. Two big fights instead of one, twice the money.
It's a bit like the Lewis-Holyfield matches, the controversy of the "draw" verdict in the first one gave the an excuse to go again. The way Liston-Clay 1 ended gave them an excuse for a second fight, but the commision's weren't buying it. It didn't matter to the promoters because the public bought it on the Tele-cast in the movie theatres and it made a lot of money.

 

When Ali fought Sonny the second time he had become a bona fide "bad guy" due to his Nation of Islam stuff. Sonny could never be a convincing "good guy".
Bad guy v. Bad guy wasn't a box office formula.

Ali beating Liston in Lewiston, Maine, set up the possibility of resurrecting everyone's favourite "good guy", Floyd Patterson.

 

Unforgiven,

Correct, Floyd was labeled as the 'American Fighter'.
Box office gold.
Guarantee of $4,000,000 + for the closed circuit telecast (ancillary rights),
and a sell-out for the 'live gate' at Las vegas.

Fact; The Lousville Sports Group (Ali's managers) never asked for or wanted a
re-match clause in the contract for the Ali-Liston II fight on May 25.
No reason to give Liston's management team $50,000 for nothing.
Liston's manager, Jack Nilon never asked for a simple agreement to insure his fighters future, and possibly get additional dollars for his fighter, whether Sonny won or not.

The Lousville Sport Group was not the least bit interested in a secondary contract.
Not even to hedge a future possibility???? Just in case the worst happened???
This fight wasn't going past the First Round!!

As for Closed Circuit buys/revenue.
Patterson-Liston I; 600,000 buys @ 260 theatre outlets = $4,200,000 (Average ticket price $7.00)
Liston-Patterson II; 250,000 buys @ 247 theatre outlets = $1,500,000 (Average ticket price $6.00)

As you can see the drop-off in theater ticket buys with Patterson (who was Gold), the ICP Group and Sonny had
no place to go.
An Ernie Terrell, George Chuvalo or Eddie Machen fight wouldn't have drawn flies.
A third fight (if Sonny won over Ali) would have never been approved by any Boxing Commision.
There's no way the public would buy a 3rd fight with Floyd Patterson.
If Sonny won, there would be no place to go, to make good money, besides dragging
Ingemar Johannson out.

 

Dave,

Sonny Liston trained in Denver, Colorado in August/September/October of 1964.
Thats where his pre-fight training was done, before heading into Massachusetts,
for the November fight in the Boston Garden.

His main sparring partners out in Colorado were;
Amos Lincoln
Leroy Green
Foneda Cox

 

Miami of '64 was legit; Lewiston of '65 was stinky like a fart lingering in an elevator... WORD!

MR.BILL

 

MR. BILL,

If you look closely into the in-depth history.
It looks like Liston was training like an animal out in Denver, leading up to the
November 21st bout in Boston.
After the cancellation, the week before the fight, something had to happen
with the Liston camp leading up to the re-scheduled event in May.

 

Actually, Sonny hated Floyd Patterson before the First Fight in 1962.
Because Patterson had only fought Tommy 'Hurricane' Jackson, the only
black fighter he gave a title shot to, in 1958.
Brian London
Pete Rademacher
Roy Harris
Ingemar Johannson (twice)
Tom McNeeley

 

Lots of good posts and opinions. I am retired fighter, and too me, its obvious when a fighter is not in there to win. I dont know if any of you remember Andrew "Fatman" Gardner, he was a trainer of mine..... he had a saying about thowing your shots: "Thow em with bad intentions". Plain and simple, Sonny wasnt throwing shots with Bad intentions, and when he did, they clearly and cleanly missed. He didnt throw combinations that were crisp. His combinations were hesitant. A professional fighter doesnt throw combinations with a time hitch (hesitation) in between punches. When Liston had openings, and he knew his punches were going to land, he threw them week, with good intentions, not bad. When he went down, his arms over his head, you can see the life in his arms. When your knocked out, its not just the legs that go, it everything (voluntary) that loses a connection to the brain, arms included. He was not out! This man was a devestating puncher and I think a much better heavyweight than given credit. I am impressed wtih Ali (I am from Louisville, its my home town) but not as nearly as impressed with him as many are. He gave us a lot of great fights, many close ones, and he almost always squeeked them out, I think much of his greatness lies in that, not his dominance as a champion. AS far as money, there was little in Liston as champ. Comparitively, Ali brought money and attention back to the sport. And the mob is all about the money.